MIDI / TimeFactor / Responsiveness

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- October 2, 2011 at 4:14 pm #108132
  
  kenficara
  Member
  
  I am trying to use a Moog MP201 to control my TimeFactor, and having a lot of trouble, even though the pedal is sending the proper CC messages.
  
  – The TF frequently doesn't go all the way to 0 at full heel, or all the way to 100 at full toe. It goes to varying numbers, (8-96, 4-78, etc).
  
  – In some configurations it hardly responds to the pedal at all. (Connected directly, it works, connected through a MIDI Sport in merge mode, it does not.)
  
  I know the pedal is sending good messages, and they're coming out of the MIDI Sport accurately, with no difference whether it's in merge or thru mode. Here's an example of the last few messages going to heel-down, captured with MIDI Analyzer for the Mac:
  
  11:49:24.360 From USB Midi Cable Control 2 Controller 25 8
  
  11:49:24.372 From USB Midi Cable Control 2 Controller 25 6
  
  11:49:24.379 From USB Midi Cable Control 2 Controller 25 4
  
  11:49:24.390 From USB Midi Cable Control 2 Controller 25 2
  
  11:49:24.402 From USB Midi Cable Control 2 Controller 25 1
  
  11:49:24.409 From USB Midi Cable Control 2 Controller 25 0
  
  The TF is set up to receive messages on channel 2, and I have RCV CTL set to 25 for PED. This same sequence of messages sometimes brings it to zero, sometimes leaves it as high as 12.
  
  Does anyone have any idea what might be going wrong? The combination of the TF and MIDI is full of possibilities, but right now it's just not usable.
- October 2, 2011 at 6:29 pm #122713
  
  DavidYates
  Participant
  
  Dude, I have the MP201 and I'm using the CV outputs with a bit of resistor attenuation to keep it at the 3V max that the 'Factors want and it works great.
  
  I was planning on using the MIDI to send specific setups to all 4 of my Factor pedals but not use the MIDI to run the expression pedal stuff.
  
  I guess I'm just old school (real old school) but the CV stuff works really well.
  
  You just have to make special cables to attenuate the voltage properly.
  
  I would love to hear more about how you get the MP201 to talk to the pedals, and how I might be able to send various settings and parameter changes to them via MIDI.
  
  There are so many undocumented (or not very well documented) features of these pedals, the possibilities are boundless if we could only get some good information.
  
  David
- October 3, 2011 at 1:11 am #122714
  
  kenficara
  Member
  
  To make the cables, you just put a resistor inline? Is it that simple? And this may be a silly question, but if the stompboxes just want a 3V max, why not set the toe value of the channel to 3000 or so? Doesn't that restrict the range to 0-3V?
  
  My setup is the MP201 going to a MIDISport 2×2, (to In A). Out A then goes to the TimeFactor. The TF is set up as I described, while the MP201 is set to expression mode, MIDI only, Ch2, CC25. This works reasonably well, although as I said the TF does not go from 0-100 when I sweep.
  
  If I switch the MIDISport into merge mode, the TF seems to get few if any messages — it'll show occasional values but mostly not change at all as the pedal sweeps. But in all cases, the MIDISport is outputting a steady stream of correct CC messages.
  
  Thanks for your help.
- October 3, 2011 at 9:56 pm #133873
  
  DavidYates
  Participant
  
  A resistor divider does the trick, not just a single series resistor. I don't remember the values I determined off-hand, will have to measure one of my cables.
  
  I think you can set the MP-201 pedal CV output for 0 to 5 or -5 to 5V out but not any other value. I have not spent enough time with the '201 to understand all it can do though.
  
  There are several of us on this board with '201s, we should combine forces to take all this to a high level.
  
  David
- October 3, 2011 at 11:35 pm #133874
  
  kenficara
  Member
  
  Thanks, David. I did a bit of research and experimentation. This post in the ET forums confirms that the TimeFactor wants a voltage range of 0 – 3.3V for the expression pedal, returning on the tip of the cable.
  
  So I took my MP201 and set up a unipolar channel like so:
  
  Channel Mode: Expression
  Heel value: 0
  Toe value: 2750
  Initial value: 1375
  Chan Output: CV and MIDI
  
  I plugged a TRS cable into the CV output for that channel, connected it to a multimeter, and measured the voltage from the tip to the sleeve. With the pedal heel down, it output 0V or close to it (occasionally 0.1). With the pedal toe down, it output roughly 3.3V. This is roughly in line with what's described on page 21 of the MP201 user manual.
  
  Based on all of this, it seems like I should be able to plug that TRS cable into the TimeFactor's expression pedal jack, and have it work the way it's supposed to. Does that make sense? I'm a little afraid of frying my TimeFactor.
  
  But I still don't understand why it doesn't respond properly to the MIDI control messages. If I just wanted an expression pedal, I could get one for much less than the cost of an MP201 and it would take up a lot less space on the board to boot. In what ways have you had success using the MP201 with the TimeFactor?
  
  And is anyone from Eventide reading this who could confirm that I won't kill my pedal if I try this?
- October 4, 2011 at 3:24 pm #133877
  
  DavidYates
  Participant
  
  I didn't know you could do that with the MP-201. Interesting. I guess I could have made much simpler cables had I known how to program that in the MP-201.
  
  I found that a voltage of 3.0V gave me 100%, so I set my dividers for that.
  
  I need some serious schoolin' in how to program that thing.
  
  My intention of the MP-201 was to have 3 or more selectable routings for the expression pedal AND to be able to send MIDI configuration information to my 'Factors. I could then have the MP-201 select particular presets or entire sets of configuration data to the pedals.
  
  I also have a Voyager and some 'Foogers that I want to be able to control as well, though not necessarily in conjunction with the 'Factors, which will reside on my pedal board.
  
  Looks like I need to spend some time with my MP-201 to learn more about how to program that thing.
  
  David
- October 5, 2011 at 2:35 am #133878
  
  kenficara
  Member
  
  That's in the channel editing mode menus for the MP201.
  
  But … just snagged a used Eclipse on ebay. So I may not be worrying about the TimeFactor anymore…….
- October 7, 2011 at 10:48 am #133879
  
  sebastiank
  Participant
  
  I missed this thread as Gmail spam filtered half my Eventide Forum posts!
  
  Great info. It seems so weird that companies hide what all options can be used for their expression jacks. Refreshingly I notice that EHX say what CV to set to as well as the usual (and unhelpful) X brand as an example. Can you explain how you work out what the pedals require? I have other stompboxes with expression pedal input and would be good to trigger them from the MP-201 as well.
  
  Re MIDI responsiveness: My findings for the factor pedals and MIDI are in this post: http://forum.eventide.com/cs/forums/p/7482/33573.aspx Re. Eclipse: I do not own one, but I do have an H8000FW and that's MIDI responsiveness is, if anything worse than the Factors.
  
  And I second that if anyone from eventide can you confirm the use of CV at the values stated will work and not cause damage to the pedal.
- October 7, 2011 at 3:45 pm #133880
  
  nickrose
  Moderator
  Eventide Staff
  
  The expression pedal on the 'Factor will accept 6V or more without damage. However, the protection circuitry will clip its input at around 3V, so a 0 to 3V swing would be best.
- October 7, 2011 at 3:57 pm #133881
  
  kenficara
  Member
  
  Thanks, Sebastian — I had actually read your post when I first started researching this, and it was very helpful. I did exactly what you suggested. Each pedal has its own channel, and the MP201 is sending only one stream of control messages for the expression pedal. If the MP201 is connected directly to the pedal it works reasonably well, although again, it never really reaches full on or full off, even if a CC127 or CC0 is sent.
  
  What's really weird is what happens when I plug the MP201 into the MIDIsport and set it to merge. Even if NOTHING is connected to the other side of the MIDIsport, the TF ignores the vast majority of the CC messages. A MIDI analyzer shows the same messages being sent with roughly the same timing, but the TF doesn't respond.
  
  So I don't know. The MP201 is doing its job exactly, and I'll try using the CV as the expression pedal output. As you said in your post, the LED status indication is pretty nice, so if I could have essentially four expression pedals on one device with an indicator for where each one was, that might not be bad. And hopefully it will be more useful with other devices (keyboards, Kaoss pad, EHX2880).
  
  Have you had any luck at least being able to change banks with the MP201's program change commands?
- October 7, 2011 at 4:01 pm #133882
  
  sebastiank
  Participant
  
  Thanks for the confirmation nick. Is there any associated problem if the CV goes below 0V? (the MP-201 can be set to transmit -5V to +5V)?
  
  Would like to know before I risk damaging my factors (not too up on CVs)
  
  Cheers
- October 7, 2011 at 5:39 pm #133883
  
  nickrose
  Moderator
  Eventide Staff
  
  The protection should be OK at -5V. It will be clipped internally to about 0V.
  
  So, best to setup for 0-3V, but it will not be damaged if you go outside this range. +5 to -5 should be fine, 110V AC could be a problem.
- October 7, 2011 at 8:13 pm #133884
  
  sebastiank
  Participant
  
  I have used the MP-201 to send program changes without issue, but I didnt get to setup the factors all to accept program changes with banks setup the way I want (im sure this is relatively easy, just time consuming). Something I'm planning to have a look at.
  
  I've finally got some time this weekend to try a few things and using CVs from the MP-201 is top of the list!
- October 10, 2011 at 10:07 am #133886
  
  sebastiank
  Participant
  
  Ok, I managed to get the CV working with the Factors straight from the MP201 by changing the Heel, Toe and initial values of each channel. It is a bit of a pain setting them using the rotary encoder but using UTILITIES > COPY/SWAP PRESETS in the MP201 speeds it up massively (I wish I found it earlier!)
  
  The responsiveness seems excellent, certainly better than MIDI CCs. I just need to get my head around all the implications of the LFO parameters to make full use of it and I will have a look at modulating multiple parameters at once to see if this responds better than MIDI (that certainly was quite laggy when I tried it using CCs).
  
  Now a question to the eventide peoples: I want to try and get my H8000FW working with CVs too, in the user manual it says of the foot pedals: "Each foot pedal jack accepts a stereo ("tip-ring- sleeve") 1/4" connector (see diagram below). Between the ring and sleeve is a fixed 5 volts provided by the H8000FW. The foot pedal that is hooked up to the jack and returned between the tip and the sleeve alters that voltage." So can someone confirm: does this mean that I can use a CV input of 0-5V as expression pedal? and more importantly is there similar "protection circuitry" that prevents harm to the unit if CVs outside this range are sent?
- October 10, 2011 at 3:32 pm #133888
  
  kenficara
  Member
  
  The manual for the Eclipse specifically mentions using CV inputs for the expression pedals. And based on what we're talking about with the TimeFactor, if you deliver between 0 and 5V on the return, it should treat that no differently than a regular expression pedal. Either way, it sends out 5V on the source and gets back 0-5V on the return. For the Eclipse, the ring is the source and the tip is the return.
  
  Also, I found this out by accident, but the MP201 expression pedal alters parameters too, very quickly. I use that to set values like toe/heel roughly, then use the knob to get the exact number I want.
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