Unnecessary AD/DA conversions

Whew! Well at least I wasn't trying to do the impossible.

So here is my routing and system setting information:

Analog 1/2/3/4 input to Main inputs (no other inputs)

Opto in: ADAT; Opto out: ADAT;

DSP A: Analog 1/2/3/4 to IN 1/2/3/4; nothing to IN 5/6/7/8

DSP B: Analog 1/2/3/4 to IN 1/2/3/4; nothing to IN 5/6/7/8

Outputs: Main Analog: DSP A Out 1 + DSP B Out 1 = ANA1

Outputs: Main Analog: DSP A Out 2 + DSP B Out 2 = ANA2

Outputs: Main Analog: DSP A Out 1 + DSP B Out 1 = ANA3

Outputs: Main Analog: DSP A Out 2 + DSP B Out 2 = ANA4

Outputs: No DIG1 Outputs

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 1 to Out 1

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 2 to Out 2

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 3 to Out 3

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 4 to Out 4

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 5 to Out 5

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 6 to Out 6

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 7 to Out 7

Outputs: ADAT: Main Out 8 to Out 8

Outputs: No AES Outputs

Outputs: No FIREWIRE1 Outputs

Outputs: No FIREWIRE2 Outputs

Clock: Source = ADAT; Source Rate = 48000; ADAT = OK

48 LED and EXT LED are lighted (not blinking, but on all the time)

I have a Gibson Echoplex loop plugged into the analog #1 jack. I can hear it on the PA system. The DIGI003/ProTools LE 7.4 system is connected to the H8000FW by Monster ADAT cables that show light at each end of their respective tunnels.

The hardware setup on ProTools is: Optical format = ADAT; Clock source = Internal; Sample Rate = 48000 kHz

I have a session open in ProTools with one audio track. The input for that audio track is set to what ProTools calls "optical channel 9/10".

When I enable recording on that track and press the "record" button, no signal shows in the meter.

I really don't know what to expect since this is first time I am attempting to record a digital signal.

Thank you for any help to can give; I know how difficult it is to troubleshoot remotely.

Joe

I did as you said; I set the route to #12. Then I set DSP A main input #1 to analog input 1. I set DSP B main input #1 to analog input 1. I set main analog outputs to DSP A + DSP B outs just so I could hear the loop.

I still don't get any signal on the Pro Tools track.

What should I be expecting to see on Pro Tools?

I apologize for using the wrong terminology; I will be more careful next time.

I set the analog output just to hear the signal, not to send it to Pro Tools. I planned to set off the analog output routing after I was successful at routing the ADAT output to the DIGI003/Pro Tools system.

Here is what I was trying to accomplish: 1) Input an analog signal to the H8000FW, 2) convert it to digital in the H8000FW through the use of the H8000FW programs, 3) output the digitial signal via ADAT to the DIGI003/Pro Tools system.

Prior to this experiment I used to feed an analog signal to the H8000FW and output an analog signal to the DIGI003/Pro Tools system. I assumed that the H8000FW automatically converts any analog signal to digital the moment it processes the analog signal through a program. I figured that there was an unnecessary DA/AD conversiion; a DA conversion done in the H8000FW to analog output, and an AD conversion done in the DIGI003/Pro Tools system to record the input.

Italo, you are a great resource. I have used many of your posts to people's questions to learn about the H8000FW's capabilities and to resolve questions that I have had.

Yes you are helping me, but I do not know if I understand the underlying principles yet. Here is what I understand thus far: I can convert analog signals to digital within the H8000FW and transmit the digital signals via ADAT to the DIGI003/Pro Tools system for recording. My confusion at this point is why no signal appears on the Pro Tools track when I attempt to record the ADAT digital signal.

So here is my latest test: 1) I reloaded Route 12; 2) I changed MAIN INPUT #1 from ADAT in 1 to analog in 1; 3) that automatically changed DSP A IN1 to analog in 1; 4) I changed MAIN OUTPUTS (Analog) ANA1 to analog in 1; 5) I set both DSP programs to "THRU"; 6) No other changes were made.

I fed the Gibson Echoplex analog signal into the analog 1 input of the H8000FW and the H8000FW shows an input signal strength between -15 and -9. I set a Pro Tools track to ADAT input, enabled recording, but do not see any signal.

At this point, even though I cannot verify that ADAT signals are in fact reaching the DIGI003, I assume that everything is set up properly on the H8000FW and that I must have something set improperly in Pro Tools. One event that leads me this conclusion is that when I change the Pro Tools session sample rate from the 44.1 to 48, the H8000FW automatically adjusts to the new value. Do you agree that the H8000FW is probably set up properly?

Like MIDI or analog recording, I am expecting to see the signal strength bar on the Pro Tools track to dance when an ADAT signal is present. Also I expect to see something in the track recorded, whether it be little boxes for MIDI or waves for analog. Are my expectations proper?

Thank you for all of your help. I apologize for not being more concise.

Joe

I performed the test as you suggested and sure enough the output levels appear on the LED for output channel 1 and 2. So at this point the H8000FW is configured properly, yes?

Like MIDI or analog recording, I am expecting to see the signal strength bar on the Pro Tools track to dance when an ADAT signal is present. Also I expect to see something in the track recorded, whether it be little boxes for MIDI or waves for analog. Are my expectations proper?

Thank you for all of your help Italo. I feel that I have a better understanding of the digital domain in the H8000FW as a result.

Joe

I agree Italo. I thought it was odd that the previous post from j20056 asking for Pro Tools information was allowed by your moderator; but since it was, I responded with the answers to his questions. I will look for a Pro Tools forum. Thanks for alll of your help Italo. Joe

Hello Italo,

Well I spent most of my time since our last email testing the DIGI003/H8000FW interface and posting my results on the Digidesign DUC forum. The DUC forum is not very helpful as Digidesign technicians don't regularly respond to questions as far as I can tell.

I would like to go over my test results with you and get your impression. Here is what I was able to prove: (By the way all of the initial tests were done with Route 12 and both DSPs set to THRU program.)

ADAT based clocking works with the DIGI003 as the master and H8000FW as a slave. ADAT based clocking does not work with the master/slave roles reversed; I get a message on the DIGI003 stating "Source clock is invalid. Reverting to internal".

S/PDIF based clocking works with either units set to master or slave respectively.

S/PDIF recording works on the DIGI003.

ADAT works when I send a previously recorded track from the DIGI003 to the H8000FW. But I don't get a signal when I try to send an ADAT stream to the DIGI003 for recording.

Both ADAT cables are OK as I swapped them and still get the same effect.

The only thing keeping me from unequivocally stating that there is nothing wrong with the H8000FW is that I can't prove beyond a doubt that data is actually being transmitted across the ADAT cable. I don't have any other ADAT devices and can't think of any tests that would prove it.

I was thinking that maybe I could ship my H8000FW back to Eventide for a diagnostic test. If the diagnostic tests prove the ADAT path is functioning properly, then I can so the same with the DIGI003 (send it to Digidesign for a diagnostic test).

What is your impression? Do you think this is an appropriate plan? Can you suggest any additional tests?

As always, I value your opinion and appreciate that Eventide provides an expert for their support forum. Digidesign could significantly reduce their customer frustration levels by following Eventide's example.

Joe

Excellent suggestion Italo; I'll contact Guitar Center here and see if they can hook me up with an ADAT device. I am a very patient person (in my old age!) so I am not very frustrated at this point, perhaps because I am also learning so much about the H8000FW and the DIGI003/Pro Tools equipment in the process.

I will also try the oscillator test and report back.

Thank you Italo

Hello Italo

I was not able to resolve this problem the last time we communicated, over a year ago. I decided to give it another try.

I was able to perform a significant test of the DIGI 003. A person on the Digi Support suggested that I use one light-pipe cable and connect it from the DIGI 003 in port to the DIGI 003 out port. I did this and was able to successfully feed a track out on ADAT channels 1-2 and record it onto another track using ADAT channels 1-2 as input. I did the same test with the other cable and was successful also.

I think this proves that the DIGI 003 is functioning properly and that the cables are OK.

I then went back to test with the H8000FW and set it up as follows:

I am using the ADAT A-B routing configuration; with no changes.

I am sending ADAT channels 1-2 to the H8000FW and see the H8000FW level meters move properly for input signals, machine in, machine out, and output.

But still no signals at the DIGI 003. What do you think?

Hello Italo, I don't have any other ADAT devices and I cannot locate any companies locally that rent something like an Alesis HD24 unit. At any rate it may be cheaper for me to ship my H8000FW to Eventide and have them perform a test. Any suggestions on other ADAT capable devices to use?

Hello Italo, I did the oscillator test as you suggested and got the same results. There is a generated sound coming out of the analog speakers, but no signal on the DIGI 003. Also the H8000FW meter shows no signal for the input and machine in blocks, but does show signals for the machine out and output blocks. I will get some new cables this evening and re-test and let you know. Thanks for all of your help. You are invaluable.

Hello Italo, I plan to take the H8000FW into an electronic repair place tomorrow to have them test the ADAT ports. I'll let you know what they say.

I thought I would try a loop-back test before I took the unit in. Using just one ADAT cable connecting the H8000FW in and out ADAT ports, I was going to set the oscillator to output a signal on just ADAT channel 1 and then set up the routing to bring that signal back in on ADAT channel 1, but let it die there. I should be able to see the input level for channel 1 light up, right?

Here is how I setup the loop-back test:

1) Loaded ADAT A-B routing configuration

2) Set Program A to Mute

3) Set clock source to internal 48 kHz

4) Set all Main Inputs to

---

, then set set Main Inputs IN 1 to ADAT in 1

5) Set all DSP A i/p routing to

---

6) Set all DSP B i/p routing to

---

7) Set all Main Outputs (Analog) to

---

, then set Main Outputs (Analog) ANA1 to DSP B out 1 +

---

(so I could hear the signal)

8) Set all Main Outputs (Digital) to

---

9) Set all ADAT Outputs to

---

, then set ADAT Outputs out1 to Main Out 1

10) Set all AES Outputs to

---

11) Set all Firewire 1 Outputs to

---

12) Set all Firewire 2 Outputs to

---

13) Plugged one lightpipe TOSLink cable from the Out port to the In port

14) Powered the H8000FW off, then on

15) Set Program B to Oscillator

Result: A signal shows up on all 8 channels of the Main Output block, and on channel 1 of the Output block, but no signal shows up on the Input block (I don't expect one to show up on the Main input block due to the way I have routed the signals.)

Do you think this is a valid test to determine if there is a hardware failure in the ADAT Out port?

Hello Italo, I am sorry to take so long to respond. I had planned to take the H8000FW into my local music shop for a test, but decided to do one more test with both cables. Well, one cable quite a bit of static. So I ordered a new cable online and it finally came today!

So I installed the new cable and walla!  Everything worked!  Sorry to spend so much time on something as simple as a failed cable, but I just didn't think that a $60 cable (I buy the best) would be bad out of the box. One side benefit of the whole discussion that we have been having is that I understand S/PDIF, ADAT, routings, clocking, and many other aspects of recording much more thoroughly, and for that I cannot thank you enough. 

I sure hope Eventide realizes what a patient, in-control, and knowledgeable asset they have in you. It is rare to get this level of support regardless of the product cost.

Thanks again for all of your help,

Joe

Italo, I'm sorry but I did the wrong test. I tested the ADAT input port, but forgot that it always worked. It's the ADAT output port that was not working. I tried the new cables but it is still not outputting any signal. At this point, unless you suggest otherwise, I plan to pack the unit off to Eventide for diagnostic testing.

I still meant all of those things that I said about you.

Joe

Hello Mike,

Interesting proposition; I'll try it!

Thanks,

Joe

Hello Italo,

I just came back from the music store where they plugged the H8000FW into a DIGI003. I set up an ossillator and input it to the Digi. All that we heard was static, as if the volumes were up WAY to loud; it was just solid distortion. We swapped the ADAT cables out; same thing. So I am going to make arrangements to ship the unit back to Eventide for repair. I'll wait a couple of days to see if you come up with anything. Thanks for all of your help.

Joe