Boss SE-style Step Phaser in an H9 / ModFactor

[brock]

I broke off this discussion to another thread, as to not 'contaminate' the H9 Wishlist too badly.

Well, Honch, I tried (within the 5-minute Phaser demo limit at the Store).  I couldn't replicate the Boss SE-50 Step Phaser sound.  I did realize that your SE-70 was the newer model, and could be much different.  I had forgotten that the SE-50 Step Phaser was part of the multi-effect Keyboard Multi 2 algo.  I had also forgotten just how lush and spacious that some of those SE-50 effects actually are.  It was a casualty of making room in my rack for newer, "better" effects.

The resonance in that phaser does indeed go very high.  But I was on the wrong track about the randomness factor.  The LFO waveform seems to be a simple triangle .wav (could be sine).  The Step parameter does start to gate or quantize that triangle at lower values.  At medium to high values, the Steps start to interact with the Rate setting.  Mid values almost sound random, and higher values audibly appear to slow the waveform down.

It's almost like a frequency or amplitude modulation, but I could not duplicate the effect using an H9's S-MOD or D-MOD controls.  Forget about the sample & hold plus ramp modulation that I suggested.  It was more like a triangle plus square modulation.  Until Rate & Step interacted, that is, and then all bets were off.  That's not to say I didn't come up with some completely outrageous phaser effects in the H9 while trying.  But the Boss SE-style Step Phaser totally escaped my grasp.

I don't give in easily, but that feature request of yours was something that I couldn't duplicate in an H9 as quickly as I thought possible.  There's something else going on there.  Even the SE Phaser Mode is somewhat baffling.  I hear multiple peak waveforms in Mode 3, and less intensity in Mode 4.  As always – the early Roland – Boss manuals never fail to amuse …

[Honch]

Thank you so much Brock. I wasn't particularly adamant on demanding that anyone else would proble as deep into this! It wasn't necessary, Brock. Thank you anyway. It shows, that at least some of the older effects and algos did indeed had something unique to them, that seems difficult to duplicate today. Which – probably – means that you have to create an all new algo for it to work just as well.

I have owned both SE-50, SE-70, VF-1. The SE-70 was the one to keep, since I've dodged the overdrive/distortion algos of all these units long ago anyway. They're great studio multifx, for keyboard, and even bass fx. Much of their – diss, flak, so to speak – came from their unwieldy and messy GUI, which steps through all parameters one at a time. Which – actually – H9 has too, if not used through a iMac/PC program interface.

The thing I wanted to point out, is that even if the algo was the same on SE-70 as on the VF-1, and settings were exactly the same, it didn't sound even remotely the same. It must be the same for SE-50. I remember though, that SE-50 sounded somewhat closer to SE-70 step phaser, than VF-1 did.

AND the conclusion, and overview morale of this is: While you might wish for this and that fx to be produced inside H9, chances/risks are that it wont turn out – even remotely – the way you've imagined. Like the distortion 2 of Eclipse wishes, the slicer wishes, or anything else. The only thing that might turn out right, is the looper thing, which is basically just a digital recorder with features.

BTW, I think it isn't necessary to create a whole other topic on this, a PM would be alright. But thanks a lot anyway.

[Honch]

brock:

I broke off this discussion to another thread, as to not 'contaminate' the H9 Wishlist too badly.

Well, Honch, I tried (within the 5-minute Phaser demo limit at the Store).  I couldn't replicate the Boss SE-50 Step Phaser sound.  I did realize that your SE-70 was the newer model, and could be much different.  I had forgotten that the SE-50 Step Phaser was part of the multi-effect Keyboard Multi 2 algo.  I had also forgotten just how lush and spacious that some of those SE-50 effects actually are.  It was a casualty of making room in my rack for newer, "better" effects.

The resonance in that phaser does indeed go very high.  But I was on the wrong track about the randomness factor.  The LFO waveform seems to be a simple triangle .wav (could be sine).  The Step parameter does start to gate or quantize that triangle at lower values.  At medium to high values, the Steps start to interact with the Rate setting.  Mid values almost sound random, and higher values audibly appear to slow the waveform down.

I

The thing I was trying to convey, is that the designers at BOSS tried to keep some of the same algos throughout both SE-50, SE-70, and VF-1. But no matter how much you keep the exact algorithms, it turns out sounding slightly different, for each new hardware platform it is introduced on.

The "mallet-marimba" type transient attack, of the Step phaser is something that they didn't think of, or know it could/would produce. Just a fringe artefact, or a side benefit, from it. They didn't think of that deliberately. Since it's heard, the most, on a SE-70. Of course, this is what all effects are supposed to be like. That us – the users – should come up with uses, sounds, and timbres that the unit wasn't intended for, in the first case. This is what makes up a great, intuitive, and creatvie unit/algorithm. Alternative uses for – say – phasers, and flangers, choruses, delays and so on.

[Given To Fly]

I do not know what prompted this thread, other than the need to replicate the sound of a Boss Step Phaser on an Eventide Modfactor/H9, but that is exactly what I would like to be able to do if possible. A little background: In 1997, there was a solo electric guitar piece titled La Cité des Saules by Hugues Dufourt. The score is 4 pages long. The Materials Required/Performance Notes are 3 pages long and very specific. When the piece was written, the composer used a Boss GX-700, Digitech TSR – 24, and Digitech PCM 10 MIDI Controller. Here are the settings used for the Step Phaser:

As you may have noticed, it’s written in French. Additionally,  the exact settings for the GX-700 are written out. Unfortunately, there is a multitap delay which lasts for about 12 seconds sounding at the same time, plus a chorus effect. The resulting sound creates the impression of “sonic boiling liquid” which is actually quite effective.

I do not own a Boss GX-700 so I have no idea what can effectively be translated over to the H9 (if anything). From what you guys discovered, effects from Boss unit to Bos unit do not necessarily stay the same and if brock could not replicate a specific step phaser sound, it may not be possible. So how does the piece ever get performed? Well, in the grand scheme of things it does not get performed often, and when it does, the performers are using a Boss GX-700, Digitech TSR – 24, and Digitech PCM 10 MIDI Controller.  I would like to use the equipment I already own as much as possible. That is why I bought it, to use it. I also think finding alternate methods to create specific sounds is going to be an important (or at least useful) skill in certain areas of contemporary music sooner rather than later. Ironically, if I was a savvy shopper, the Boss GX-700 and two Digitech units could be had on the used market for less than an H9 Core, assuming I can find them and that they work.

I disagree with Honch, I think “a whole other topic on this” is necessary.  <-That is a “wink,” not a mangled face. FYI

[Honch]

Given To Fly wrote:

I do not know what prompted this thread, other than the need to replicate the sound of a Boss Step Phaser on an Eventide Modfactor/H9, but that is exactly what I would like to be able to do if possible. A little background: In 1997, there was a solo electric guitar piece titled La Cité des Saules by Hugues Dufourt. The score is 4 pages long. The Materials Required/Performance Notes are 3 pages long and very specific.

 

Oh dear. Thank you so much. I never even knew that a piece was/were written for that specific sound. The one thing, that I think, is that – today – when MOST algorithms are just some kind of software, and very very little actual hardware, it would be a piece of cake to produce. BTW, good to see this thread is being woke up again, after a few years. Yes, I still like the Step Phaser sound, as pulled off in the SE-70 series. Like you said “boiling pot” of something. I would love to hear that piece as I can’t find it at the moment. Thanks for the link anyway, though it is in french.

[brock]

    I haven’t been able to bring up those Boss GX-100 settings image (in several different browsers), but I did download the manual.  At least the parameters and ranges reflect the SE series; if not the exact algorithm structure.  I imagine more resources available to the phaser in the full rack model.  It was not easy to separate effects on the videos I found (with YouTube-quality audio tracks).

    At the time of original posting, I was in the process of demo’-ing algorithms for an H9 Standard.  It’s since become an H9 Max+Core pairing, with many more hours under the belt.  I believe one difficulty with an H9 / ModFactor emulation is that the LFO waveform isn’t truly ‘quantized’ into discrete steps.  Secondary modulation can add to a (triangle) waveform, but the results aren’t quite the same.

Here’s an example.  You can hear the alternating high & low values of the SQUARE .wav amplitude modulation, rather than the ascending & descending ‘staircase’ effect.  Close, but not all the way there.

With the original hardware lacking any MIDI sync, it’d be more accurate to deal in Hertz, and try to match that to the percentage variables.  Since a Resonance parameter is featured, the FEEDBACK sub-type can help (optional).

    There are many interesting variations, with switching among SHAPE and MOD SOURCE combinations.  A more powerful route is to ‘split’ the algorithm simulation between two units.  For example, the SE-style Flanger (with Gate) is much more believable with the TremoloPan algo in series with Flanger (in a 2nd H9).  That kind of routing can also be used to bring some of that “mallet-marimba” attack to the base Phaser modulation.

[Given To Fly]

Thank you brock! You are good at Eventiding. 

Listening to La Cité des Saules is unlikely to offer any insight into the technical setup or how to play it, which is intentional. Spatialization is the concept/intent of the piece and the guitar with a volume pedal act more like a “controller” than a traditional instrument. To some degree, you have to take it on faith that “the right notes are the right notes.” This works if you have a Boss GX-700 and Digitech TSR-24, the processors the composer used, but if you do not have the same gear, you have to try and find different avenues to reach the same result.     

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