Crushstation volume issues

[Adamixoye]

I have heard people say that Crushstation is very loud.  I have the opposite problem.  For me, all of the Crushstation presets are extremely quiet.  I have to boost by 8-12 dB on the per-preset output level to get something approaching unity volume compared to bypass.  Playing with the other parameters doesn’t particularly change this.

I am not satisfied with some of the discussion I’ve seen that chalks this up to different instrument input levels.  That doesn’t make any sense—why would the preset be loud for some and quieter for others?

Is there ANY chance that this is some sort of “bad install”?

[jarvis1227]

I’m also having volume issues only on crushstation. The volume is either really low or so loud it clips, cuts out. Thoughts?

[brock]

I had very similar symptoms with CrushStation.  It turned out to be (partial) phase cancellation in my signal chain.  I’m running mono-to-stereo [ /dual mono] on my pedalboard, and the ‘split point’ was my AdrenaLinn III.  Evidently, the right output isn’t perfectly in-phase with left/mono out.

When I took it out of the signal path, and let another device (PitchFactor) mix internally, the 12dB boost for CrushStation presets was no longer required.  That also solved a longstanding problem that I had with the PitchFactor’s HarPeggiator fuzz effects.  I’m not saying that this will mirror your own issue, but it may be a diagnostic worth looking into.

[Adamixoye]

brock wrote:

I had very similar symptoms with CrushStation.  It turned out to be (partial) phase cancellation in my signal chain.  I’m running mono-to-stereo [ /dual mono] on my pedalboard, and the ‘split point’ was my AdrenaLinn III.  Evidently, the right output isn’t perfectly in-phase with left/mono out.

When I took it out of the signal path, and let another device (PitchFactor) mix internally, the 12dB boost for CrushStation presets was no longer required.  That also solved a longstanding problem that I had with the PitchFactor’s HarPeggiator fuzz effects.  I’m not saying that this will mirror your own issue, but it may be a diagnostic worth looking into.

That’s interesting but doesn’t apply to my setup as I am running things completely mono.

[otisdogwfwf1]

The crush station is extrememly loud relative to all the other algo’s–not sure why

[jarvis1227]

I was just playing with the fra diavolo preset and I noticed there was an adjustment for the output. Set it to -9 db and it was pretty good.

[wedelich]

Adamixoye wrote:

I have heard people say that Crushstation is very loud.  I have the opposite problem.  For me, all of the Crushstation presets are extremely quiet.  I have to boost by 8-12 dB on the per-preset output level to get something approaching unity volume compared to bypass.  Playing with the other parameters doesn't particularly change this.

I am not satisfied with some of the discussion I've seen that chalks this up to different instrument input levels.  That doesn't make any sense—why would the preset be loud for some and quieter for others?

Is there ANY chance that this is some sort of "bad install"?

 

My expert hypothesis / gut instinct tells me there is no such thing as a "bad install" that would exhibit this type of behavior.  Bad installs usually just don't work at all.  That leaves the largest variable being your setup…. so what is your exact setup?  I'm not suggesting it's to blame yet, we just can't properly diagnose without this sort of information.  Also, have you tried the simplest setup possible and/or different guitars / audio sources?  

[Adamixoye]

wedelich wrote:

My expert hypothesis / gut instinct tells me there is no such thing as a “bad install” that would exhibit this type of behavior.  Bad installs usually just don’t work at all.  That leaves the largest variable being your setup…. so what is your exact setup?  I’m not suggesting it’s to blame yet, we just can’t properly diagnose without this sort of information.  Also, have you tried the simplest setup possible and/or different guitars / audio sources?  

I play both guitar and bass through a large pedal board into their respective amps.  I actually have a picture of the board at the link below.  The full chain is described there but the salient point is that I am running several pedals before it and after it but there is a mix of true bypass and buffered pedals.  Compression is before the H9s.  There is a noise gate in the M5 after the H9s, but I’m experiencing this volume issue while playing.

http://www.talkbass.com/threads/pedal-breeders-big-board-club-part-ii-biggins.1045244/page-2185#post-17554396

I am playing an Ibanez RG Series guitar (passive, usually bridge humbucker) and a Music Man Stringray 5 bass (active, single humbucker).  I notice the issue on both instruments, although it seemed like the issue might be slightly worse with the guitar, but it is present with both.  I do have other instruments that I could try.

I have not tried guitar -> H9 only -> amp just yet.  I will do that.  However, considering this doesn’t happen with my other dirt pedals, my other pedals in general, or the other H9 algorithms, what about my setup could possibly be causing this behavior?  I assume the mention of “different setups” is pointing to some input level/impedance mismatch issue?  But I don’t seem to have that with anything but Crushstation.

[Adamixoye]

I tried guitar –> H9 –> amp with no other pedals.  I used two different guitars.  On both the bypassed signal was significantly louder than the effected signal for a wide range of settings and different presets.  I tried it with the mix at 50/50 and the clean signal was much louder than the dirty signal.

My bass was a little harder to tell—levels seemed a little more comparable, and the EQ made a huge difference.  I only tried one bass.

[wedelich]

Adamixoye wrote:

I tried guitar –> H9 –> amp with no other pedals.  I used two different guitars.  On both the bypassed signal was significantly louder than the effected signal for a wide range of settings and different presets.  I tried it with the mix at 50/50 and the clean signal was much louder than the dirty signal.

My bass was a little harder to tell—levels seemed a little more comparable, and the EQ made a huge difference.  I only tried one bass.

 

So what CrushStation presets are you using, and what are the settings?  This might matter b/c your guitars could be sitting on the compression curves and gain curves differently depending on their input levels.   Also have you tried adjusting the input gain of the H9?  

[Adamixoye]

wedelich wrote:

Adamixoye wrote:

I tried guitar –> H9 –> amp with no other pedals.  I used two different guitars.  On both the bypassed signal was significantly louder than the effected signal for a wide range of settings and different presets.  I tried it with the mix at 50/50 and the clean signal was much louder than the dirty signal.

My bass was a little harder to tell—levels seemed a little more comparable, and the EQ made a huge difference.  I only tried one bass.

 

So what CrushStation presets are you using, and what are the settings?  This might matter b/c your guitars could be sitting on the compression curves and gain curves differently depending on their input levels.   Also have you tried adjusting the input gain of the H9?  

I tried almost every preset.  On guitar, NONE of them have the same volume as a bypassed signal without cranking up the output gain, or maybe you can get close by boosting the EQ across the board.  But even at maximum drive, for various values of the sustain knob, engaged << bypassed if the output gain is +0 dB.  The only one that’s in the ballpark from the get-go was Crawdaddy, which I think was already at +4dB, but even that seemed like it really needed to be at closer to +10 dB.

I explored the input gain, it was set to 0 dB.  Increasing it didn’t seem to help, which makes sense according to my understanding of the process—if I increase the input gain, that’s just slamming the circuit, if it’s already quiet due to weird compression effects that wouldn’t help much.  Again, maybe that assumption is completely wrong.

I could try to record some video/audio if that would help.

[wedelich]

Adamixoye wrote:

I tried almost every preset.  On guitar, NONE of them have the same volume as a bypassed signal without cranking up the output gain, or maybe you can get close by boosting the EQ across the board.  But even at maximum drive, for various values of the sustain knob, engaged << bypassed if the output gain is +0 dB.  The only one that's in the ballpark from the get-go was Crawdaddy, which I think was already at +4dB, but even that seemed like it really needed to be at closer to +10 dB.

I explored the input gain, it was set to 0 dB.  Increasing it didn't seem to help, which makes sense according to my understanding of the process—if I increase the input gain, that's just slamming the circuit, if it's already quiet due to weird compression effects that wouldn't help much.  Again, maybe that assumption is completely wrong.

I could try to record some video/audio if that would help.

 

Sure audio/video could help. 

It's still digital gain, so we have to clip in a nice distorted way so as to never reach 0db Full Scale value.

A little more explanation: Since the base gain swing on the distortion curve about is so huge (up to 32 dB I think), we do some auto volume normalizing so we didn't have to have a huge swing on the output gain to make up for small and large of amounts of distortion.  Most distortion pedals have the gain and volume knobs, and this is really no different, we just created our own auto volume knob functionality and assumed people would use output gain to fine tune.  

It could be that your guitars have a very hight output.  In which case you're loosing some dB due to the asymmtrical gain curve, etc.  Another quick test to see if this is true: try your bypassed / active test with your volume knob down to varying degrees and see if it ever comes out the same that way. 

Alternatively, if the signal is low, you could be getting caught up a bit on the wrong side of the auto output volume stuff.  But increasing input gain on the H9 should help with this.  

Also, what type of bypass are you using (Relay, DSP)?  

You could also try increasing the Grit to get more of the lows and low mids into the distortion, this will raise the volume too.  If your guitar gets most of its signal in the lower range, or you play with the tone rolled off a lot,  I can see why Grit at 0 would significantly lower the volume. 

In general, this whole issue isn't anything I'd really condsider abnormal, just use the output gain like you are doing to normalize it to taste.  That's what it's there for.  I anticipated that people would have to use it much more on this effect than the others, it's just the nature of the beast.  If there's some other reason it bothers you to do this (does it make the algorithm unusable, etc.), I'll keep trying to dig deeper to see if there is actually a problem. 

 

 

 

[Adamixoye]

wedelich wrote:

Sure audio/video could help. 

It’s still digital gain, so we have to clip in a nice distorted way so as to never reach 0db Full Scale value.

A little more explanation: Since the base gain swing on the distortion curve about is so huge (up to 32 dB I think), we do some auto volume normalizing so we didn’t have to have a huge swing on the output gain to make up for small and large of amounts of distortion.  Most distortion pedals have the gain and volume knobs, and this is really no different, we just created our own auto volume knob functionality and assumed people would use output gain to fine tune.  

It could be that your guitars have a very hight output.  In which case you’re loosing some dB due to the asymmtrical gain curve, etc.  Another quick test to see if this is true: try your bypassed / active test with your volume knob down to varying degrees and see if it ever comes out the same that way. 

Alternatively, if the signal is low, you could be getting caught up a bit on the wrong side of the auto output volume stuff.  But increasing input gain on the H9 should help with this.  

Also, what type of bypass are you using (Relay, DSP)?  

You could also try increasing the Grit to get more of the lows and low mids into the distortion, this will raise the volume too.  If your guitar gets most of its signal in the lower range, or you play with the tone rolled off a lot,  I can see why Grit at 0 would significantly lower the volume. 

In general, this whole issue isn’t anything I’d really condsider abnormal, just use the output gain like you are doing to normalize it to taste.  That’s what it’s there for.  I anticipated that people would have to use it much more on this effect than the others, it’s just the nature of the beast.  If there’s some other reason it bothers you to do this (does it make the algorithm unusable, etc.), I’ll keep trying to dig deeper to see if there is actually a problem. 

Thanks for your comments.  I am going to dig into this some more and see if I can live with using the output gain to make up the difference. However, I’ll mention the two reasons I have been searching for a different solution thus far:

(1) I am worried that there is not enough available gain if I would ever want a situation where the effected signal is significantly louder than the bypassed signal.  Probably a rare situation but it might be important in a mix.

(2) Especially in my house I have some external noise issues (EMI) that mean I would rather not have a huge mid-chain boost that’s just going to boost the noise floor.  My early impression was that the Crushstation noise gate didn’t fully take care of this, but that’s something I have to experiment with more.

[Send2george2]

I just got my max today so I’m still noodling and trying to see what the device will do for me, but on loading crush it’s like there’s a towel over my speaker…. I will try and get take the other pedals out and my boss tuner which is in the fx loop of my mesa lonestar special and report back tomorrow.

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