Daisy Chaining / Midi Controllers

[rolexm]

Good day.

I have the TF, MF and PF. I would like to know if there is a midi controller I could use to control all 3 at the same time because I think most midi controllers only have one input. If there is none, then another option would be daisy chaining them together. Is this possible?

Thanks,

Rob

[nickrose]

If you set all the 'Factors to MIDI THRU you can daisy chain them. This will preclude you from using MIDIclock out from the first one – if you want this you will need a "MIDI Merge" box.

[badmelonfarmer]

The Ground Control Pro is pretty cool for the money.

you can setup each Factor on different midi channels and assign easily from the bank switches.

eg TimeFactor to MidiChannel 1, ModFactor to 2 and PitchFactor to 3

works well

Easier and more full featured than the Rocktrol Midimate, which i was not so keen on and taptempo did not work correctly with the factors. 

[rolexm]

nickrose:

If you set all the 'Factors to MIDI THRU you can daisy chain them. This will preclude you from using MIDIclock out from the first one – if you want this you will need a "MIDI Merge" box.

Which MIDI merge box do you recommend? Does that mean I could use:

ROLAND FC-200 MIDI FOOT CONTROLLER

OR

FLOORBOARD VETTA BV

OR

Behringer FCB1010

THE GCB is not in my budget. Thanks. 🙂

[badmelonfarmer]

Surprisingly the Berhinger gets a lot of good press, especially with the UNO rom update wich allows a lot more functionality. Personally don't Berhingers business model and quality….but that is just my opinion / problem.

It is basically a rip off, sorry tribute to the Roland one you have listed.

I am not sure that the Line 6 controller will be any use, I have had 3 Line6 FBVs, an Express, a Shortboad and a shortboard MkII and none of them have Midi ports, the FBV MkII has a USB port that can send Midi and has a cool computer interface for programming, but you would need to have it plugged into a computer all the time as it will not work standalone.

Not sure where you are in the world, but I managed to get a Ground Control Pro in perfect condition for less than I can buy a Roland FC-300 new.

[nickrose]

rolexm:

Which MIDI merge box do you recommend

All the units you show are pedalboards, which may or may not have MIDI merge capability. What I had in mind was something more like:

http://www.midisolutions.com/prodmrg.htm

[quintessence]

The Liquidfoot Jr is brilliant for controlling all of your factors. 

[rolexm]

Thanks for the replies! 🙂

Would it be possible to use one factor as the master and the other 2 as slaves and use the master as input to the Midi Controller? I plan to get the Behringer. 🙂

[brock]

That will work in the FCB1010.  One 'Factor XMT & CLK Out to the FCB 1010's MIDI In.  Set the Config page of the Behringer's Global Configuration menu to MERGE.  MIDI Out to the next 'Factor MIDI In.  MIDI Out of that 'Factor to the MIDI In of the third 'Factor.  The 2nd and 3rd 'Factors require their OUTPUT set to THRU.

Obviously, the "master" 'Factor pedal will not be affected by the FCB 1010's MIDI commands, unless you loop #3 MIDI OUT back to #1 MIDI IN, and take great care in setting up all of your MIDI channels and such (to avoid "MIDI feedback").

[badmelonfarmer]

brock:

That will work in the FCB1010.  One 'Factor XMT & CLK Out to the FCB 1010's MIDI In.  Set the Config page of the Behringer's Global Configuration menu to MERGE.  MIDI Out to the next 'Factor MIDI In.  MIDI Out of that 'Factor to the MIDI In of the third 'Factor.  The 2nd and 3rd 'Factors require their OUTPUT set to THRU.

Obviously, the "master" 'Factor pedal will not be affected by the FCB 1010's MIDI commands, unless you loop #3 MIDI OUT back to #1 MIDI IN, and take great care in setting up all of your MIDI channels and such (to avoid "MIDI feedback").

NICE!!!!!

thanks for that, I think you have helped me too.

Going to have a play to see if this will solve some issues I was having.

Does anyone know if there is an issue linking an out to an in on the same device?

The reason I am asking is that I figure by doing what you say I can send an out from my eclipse to the input of my controller then out from my controller (Ground Control Pro) to the input on my eclipse then run my devices I want to slave the midiclock off of from the through of the next units (Axe-FX and a Space).

So could I safely connect the Out to In on the Eclipse with a cable when not using the controller??

Sounds like a good plan and on paper it works for me.

[timothyhill]

At one point, I had three Factors (TF, MF, PF) all feeding each other via MIDI in a big loop. I'm not quite sure how I had everything set up, but I had the MIDI Clock on one controlling the other two and I had the Program Change from another one also controlling the other two. And I did it without a Merge box, too… but like I said, I don't remember at this point what the exact settings were. I think the TF was the master clock and the PF was the master program changer, but everything was connected MIDI Out to MIDI In using 3 standard cables between those 3 boxes. I wasn't really trying to accomplish anything more than just to see if I could do it. It was too convoluted to be practical for everyday use.

Anyway, the point is that there's no reason why you can't connect a number of MIDI devices in a MIDI loop. It takes some careful configuration, though, to avoid MIDI feedback, like Brock said. Basically, just make sure that any device that is transmitting a specific function is not also receiving that function. If it is, it creates a feedback loop and it won't work. For instance, if you've got a device that's transmitting MIDI Clock, it should not also be set to receive MIDI Clock, or it may (depending on the device in question) constantly try to chase itself and nothing will work. That applies to any CC data as well, and any other function, really, but those two are the main ones. To the best of my knowledge, you aren't going to blow anything up by trying, though. Just make sure you've got a backup of the presets you care about and you remember how to do a factory reset in case things get out of hand.

[brock]

Quote:

I can send an out from my eclipse to the input of my controller then out from my controller (Ground Control Pro) to the input on my eclipse then run my devices I want to slave the midiclock off of from the through of the next units (Axe-FX and a Space).

I think that the Ground Control Pro is going to be the logjam in that MIDI routing. Hope that I'm wrong (I don't own it), but I don't see a way to merge the MIDI In stream with the GCP-generated messages transmitted to MIDI Out.  Most MIDI devices stick to MIDI IN = receive, and MIDI Out = transmit., and these remain isolated from one another.  MIDI THRU is an identical copy of what's coming to the MIDI IN jack.

But in some devices, you'll see a global "merge, soft-thru, in + out" or similar setting.  That will serve the function of blending the MIDI In signal with the device's transmitted data, and sending it to MIDI Out.  If it's not part of a device's feature set, then the alternative is an external MIDI Merge or MIDI Thru box.  Sometimes, a little creative MIDI routing (to a box that already has MIDI In / Out / Thru jacks) and some compromise will substitute for that.

Of course, "soft-thru" jacks can be problematic, too; as you'll have to pay closer attention to MIDI channels, Omni On/Off, assigned controllers, etc.  I believe that you could  jumper the In & Out jacks directly together in the Eclipse.  (I'm not sure what the advantage would be).  Some MIDI devices perform their diagnostics routines in the same way.  But I noticed that SEQ OUT parameter in the manual, and I'd suggest keeping that one OFF.

I don't know that MIDI feedback would be possible if three / four 'Factors (only) were all looped MIDI Out to MIDI In.  If any one of them had OUTPUT set to XMT, then that 'Factor wouldn't pass MIDI on though.  If all of them have OUTPUT = THRU, then … no MIDI is being generated within the loop.  It's when you add a 'rogue' device to the chain (one that merges MIDI Out + MIDI In / Thru) that the feedback loop is completed.  It's transmitting MIDI data, and that same data has the potential to come back through it's own MIDI In jack.

[timothyhill]

No, I didn't have any problems with MIDI feedback when I had 3 Factors looped, although I wasn't using any CCs. I don't know if that would be the case with an Eclipse, though, and from what I remember from the Eclipse UM, Brock's right about the SEQ OUT setting (UM p49).

I think (again, I don't remember exactly) that I had the TF transmitting MIDI Clock, so it's MIDI OUT would've been set to XMT. I had that running to the PF, which was sent to receive MIDI Clock as well as transmit MIDI Clock and Program Change. So, it's MIDI OUT would've been XMT, too, but it was mirroring the clock data from the TF. I then ran the PF to the MF, which was set to receive MIDI Clock and Program Change, and its MIDI OUT was set to THRU. That ran back to the TF, which was set to receive Program Change data. The result was that I could use the tap tempo from the TF to control the clock of all three pedals and use the preset selection from the PF to control all three pedals. At least that's what I remember… I may have been mirroring the program change data, not the clock data, but the result would essentially be the same. This was awhile before V3 came out, too. I've since rewired my pedalboard, so I can't directly test this without doing so again (the MIDI jacks aren't easily accessible in my current setup).

I wish the Factor pedals had a MIDI Merge function built in, but they don't. Maybe in a future version??

[badmelonfarmer]

I just tried it and as always in this MIDI routing nightmare …. I am nearly there, but something just fails with one function LOL.

I read that Ground Control Pro version 1.1 added a "Mirror" function where commands received on the "IN" are mirrored on the "OUT" so in theory it should work.

I tried my set up with the loop out of the eclipse back into the eclipse then using Thru out to the Axe-FX ….this is how I would like to use it at home for recording etc… ie be able to use it without the GCP….. this worked fine as hoped….yay!

then I hooked up the GCP and program changes worked as hoped but the MIDI Clock seemed to be filtered out for the Tap Tempo – boooooo! so it looks as though the eclipse seems to filter out the Tap tempo…. off to the Eclipse Forum to ask in there……

[badmelonfarmer]

actually thinking about it it must be the Ground Control Pro that is filtering out the MIDI clock as it works fine with a midi loop cable and only fails when the Ground Control Pro is inserted into the loop.

I have looked at the options…..off to ask Voodoo Labs….

[sjoplin]

I feel your pain, and I also wish these stompboxes allowed for a midi merge or allow the midi clock function to work when the midi out is set to thru and not just with midi out set to XMT.

I have tried to get a setup where i could control multiple Eventide stompboxes from a Ground Control (TF, PF, and hopefully Space soon).  Getting all devices to change programs was easy, getting hold and tap functions to work on the TF was simple, but I couldn't get the tap function on the TF to then allow the other boxes to 'slave' to that tempo.

After much trial and error, it doesn't look possible without the midi merge box, or you have to go back to ditching the ground control and use one of the stompboxes as your master pedal and utilze the true midi-daisychaining…..

these boxes sound great…..

[guitarlesson]

timothyhill:

I wish the Factor pedals had a MIDI Merge function built in, but they don't. Maybe in a future version??

I wonder if there is any technical reason why a Factor pedal couldn't incorporate a MIDI Merge option. If not, +1 vote from me too.

[brock]

Quote:

I wonder if there is any technical reason why a Factor pedal couldn't incorporate a MIDI Merge option.

I have no idea what the technical hurdles might be.  Just speculation, but  perhaps the XMT and RCV resources are shared in some way?  I've thrown a lot of multiple MIDI messages at my PitchFactor at the same time.  The display starts freaking out, but it never seems to show signs of any strain (in an audible sense).  So maybe it's not that the 'Factors have maxed out the alloted "MIDI headroom"?

Otherwise, I really can't figure out the reasoning behind the unusual "XOR" design of the OUTPUT setting.  It's either  MIDI IN + MIDI THRU -or-  MIDI OUT with MIDI IN defeated.  Granted, MIDI IN and MIDI OUT remain isolated in most any device.  But some devices allow you to add  MIDI IN to MIDI OUT.  Clock's still active, MIDI can be received IN, transmitted OUT, and passed on THRU, simultaneously.  You don't lose any routing options.

I chalked it up to Eventide making a design decision that included elements of "user-proofing".  Perhaps there are fewer TS calls if you consider limiting the options.  It's a great scheme for multiple 'Factor pedals (only).  One's the XMT master, and the other two or three 'Factors slave to it (and pass the "master" data THRU downstream).  But if you add a controller (or another type of stompbox) …  Let's face it:  If you already have 3 or 4  'Factor pedals in your rig, you're GOING to have at least one more 'box in the signal chain.

Eventide seems open to practical suggestions.  If there was enough demand, and it was technically possible, maybe a MIDI Merge option would be good one to consider.  That would certainly open up more possibilities in the MIDI controller area.  Bullet point for the sales pitch: "Now, total MIDI compatibility across ANY rig!".  Sell more pedals to the Gear Acquisition Syndrome crowd (like some of us here).  The other side of the coin is, "How many customers use MIDI – at all?"

Or, (being a hardware company), they could dongle that MIDI capability into a FactorControl pedal.  

[rolexm]

Anyone have tried using the Behringer or Roland? I prefer them because of the expression pedals. 🙂

If so, pics or videos please? 🙂

[badmelonfarmer]

brock:

Eventide seems open to practical suggestions.  If there was enough demand, and it was technically possible, maybe a MIDI Merge option would be good one to consider.  That would certainly open up more possibilities in the MIDI controller area.  Bullet point for the sales pitch: "Now, total MIDI compatibility across ANY rig!".  Sell more pedals to the Gear Acquisition Syndrome crowd (like some of us here).  The other side of the coin is, "How many customers use MIDI – at all?"

Agreed, I think this would mae a lot of sense and ease some of the frustration MIDI causes.

I have been battleing to connect 3 MIDI devices (2 Eventide) to a controller …8 MIDI cables, 2 MIDI Merge boxes later…. I still am not quite sure that I am there!!

Not Eventide's fault, they are only working within the standards and MIDI…. which seems to have changed very little since they were originally developed in 1491 when Columbus wanted to connect 2 Lutes together for his up coming tour.

I wish there was a more uptodate standard for MIDI, something like MIDI over TCP/IP

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