Eclipse Analog Outs

[jamminout]

I have a set of questions regarding the Eclipse XLR & 1/4" analog outs.

1) If I use the unit in an amp effects loop, I am assuming that "L" is used for mono. That is, "L" out will "sum" the left & right outputs for a full mono out. The question here is, is the "R" out jack switched so that if a plug is inserted, "L" & "R" become stereo (and "L" is no longer summed)?

That question is basically: Can I use the "L" out to the amp return and the "R" out to a computer interface for recording direct? I'm guessing not, but wanted to ask since this leads to my next question.

2) Can I use the 1/4" "L" out to the amp loop return and then use the XLR "L" & "R" outs to my computer PCI card ins (Delta 44 w/1/4" breakout box ins)? That is, can the "L" 1/4" &  XLR ("L" & "R") outs both be used simultaneously?

3) Finally, can I use the 1/4" "L" & "R" outs to a stereo power amp (Mesa 20/20) and use the XLR "L" & "R" outs to the interface?

I think I covered it without being too naive. 😉 Thanks Jam

[Count Robio]

Not Sure about 1 or 2 cuz I always run stereo but question #3 works very well for me.

[IDeangelis]

Hi

if you carefully check Eclipse rear panel you won't see "L" or "R" next to I/Os. Just "Ch1" and "Ch2".

The unit is not exactly designed to work in full mono I/O. Infact you can choose to work in full stereo I/O or mono in/stereo out. To set mono in, go to LEVELS > I/O MODE and select Mono 1 if the connected input is Ch1 or Mono 2 if the input is Ch2.

A way to use full mono I/O is to set the unit on Mono 1 or 2 anc connect the corresponding input and output, then create presets with DUAL MONO routing and load an algorithm in the fx block feeded by the connected I/Os. Unfortunately this choice will only use a single fx block.

So your question #1 doesn't have the answer you expect. In addition to this, XLRs must be used for balanced/unbalanced line level signals (+4dB), such as post preamp, post FX loop send. Check your equipment specs for this. 1/4" connectors should only be used with unbalanced instrument level (-20/-10dB). So probably you should use your XLRs for loop send AND return. This applies to questions 3 and 4.

All outputs should be alive at the same time…but as per above, they should be properly connected to match signal type, level, impedance.

all the best

I

[jamminout]

Okay, thank you for the two responses, each begins clearing my cobwebs. Rather than go into all that I don't quite understand yet (e.g., the whole plus/minus db stuff), I will ask a simplified question or two which might help me get that.

1) If I use the Eclipse in my Mesa effects loop (mono send, mono return), do I use the 1/4" analog in & out or the XLR analog in & out? (I saw "you should use your XLRs for loop send AND return" but all the db stuff has me very confused, so I'm re-asking to be double sure.)

a. if 1/4" – a normal TS instrument cable? or a TRS cable?

b. if XLR – how do I convert the XLR to 1/4"? Pre-made cable somewhere available? What pins to T and S? Or T, R and S if required?

2) And then the question of In/Out settings, how to set what.

3) And then my question about sending a 2-channel (left & right) signal to my line level PCI interface inputs while at the same time sending the one channel to the Mesa loop return.

a. If, then, I have one XLR out to the loop return, can I at the same time send the 2 channels of 1/4" analog outs to the interface?

b. And if so, how do I do all of the I/O settings?

c. Oh, and what 1/4" cables? TS or TRS? I read that my interface jacks are 1/4" TRS and are compatible with 1/4" TRS (balanced) or TS (unbalanced) connections.

4) Dang it! Then I see in my interface manual the same talk about +/-db (analog I/O configurable for +4dBu, and -10dBV signal levels).

But still, I think if I get these basic mechanics down, I will be equipped to think through the db, etc., theory.

Thank you, Jam

[IDeangelis]

Jam

first comes knowledge, then the application of it.

Levels in audio are measured in dB. This is a relative (not absolute) unity measure… something I won't get into now as it may not be important. Audio levels are generally divided into instrument and line types. The most common signal levels in music apps are instrument levels at -10 or -20 dB and line levels at +4 dB. There other line levels ranges in higher pro devices like sophisticated studio mixers…

To simplify things a bit, a line level can be generally considered a signal that has already gone thru a substantial stage of pre_amplification whereas an instrument signal is purely what a guitar, a bass or a keyboard can put out as it is. This is a very poor description but may be useful for typical guitar apps.

Properly designed Fx loops should use +4dB line level signals. Some loops offer a switch to change between -20/-10 to +4dB (mostly in older gtr amps). A preamp (Boogie, Soldano..and the likes) send out a +4 dB line level signal.

1)Boogies use +4dB line levels in fx loops (check the manual or ask their support for confirmation), so you should use XLRs on Eventide products to interface correctly.

1/4" I/Os should be used when:

-an instrument is directly connected to Eclipse, like in a gtr>Eclipse>combo amp setup

-any audio source that you know is working at non line level.

1b) The User Manual explains how to wire the cables ends connected to the Eventide as balanced and how to unbalance the other ends connected to unbalanced sources. Our Knowledge base area has a number of useful tech notes in this field.

Here:

http://www.eventide.com/AudioDivision/Support/Knowledgebase.aspx

check the "Most Popular Articles" section for accurate details.

2) Not clear what exactly you ask here. Please elaborate.

3a) yes, it's possible..but..again….levels and connectors should be properly matched on their signal type.

3b) Not really much to set on Eclipse; as I said in my first reply all outputs should be alive at the same time, so no need to set anything here. Inputs may need to be properly set if you use stereo or mono input. That's also described in my previous reply.

3c) you'll know this after reading the Knowledge Base technotes and the user manual.

4) ALL audio devices will deal with signal type, level and impedance. No way out. It's important.

The rule is simple! Match an output with an input of the same exact audio level.

cheers

I

[jamminout]

OK, I think I have the picture in general; the FAQs and posts have been excellent. I'll review a bit to be sure I got it and then inquire about two set-ups.

What throws me off is the "relative" db thing. I have thought in "absolute" terms (instrument level is 1/2 volt, line level is one volt, etc.) So, simply put, +4db is reference to line level and -10db is reference to instrument level.

I also basically understand the balanced/unbalanced issue, and the need to "make" the cables required for balanced-to-unbalanced connections (XLRs to 1/4"): keeping the Eclipse inputs and outputs BALANCED, while unbalancing the other ends connected to the unbalanced guitar equipment.

1) One thing I'm not sure I understand. I will use balanced cables and follow the manual on how to unbalance the TRS end of the connection. The manual says:

Pin #1 is ground
Pin #2 is positive phase (hot)
Pin #3 is negative phase (cold)
To "unbalance" use pins #1 and #3 as ground and use pin #2 as "hot"

a. Is this saying Pin #2 (hot) is the 1/4" plug's "Tip"? If so, then I can understand that Pins 1 & 3 would simply be "Sleeve" & "Ring" shorted.

b. I ask because the XLR to 1/4" cables I've found are said to be Pin #3 (hot). Does this mean there are different XLR to 1/4" cables with different wiring configurations and I've found the wrong ones?

If so, then I can understand that I need to either find the right ones and only short pins 1 & 3; or start from scratch and rewire all three pins on the TRS end accordingly.

2) Now to be sure I understand the right cables for my two set-ups:

a. For live rig (series loop):

Mesa Loop Send > G-Major Mono In = TS instrument cable
G-Major Mono Out > Eclipse Ch. 1 In = TRS (don't unbalance) to XLR (bal) cable
Eclipse Ch. 1 Out > Mesa Loop Return = XLR (bal) to TRS (do unbalance) cable

b. For recording direct (series loop):

Mesa Loop Send > G-Major Mono In = TS instrument cable
G-Major "L" Out > Eclipse Ch. 1 In = TRS (don't unbalance) to XLR (bal) cable
G-Major "R" Out > Eclipse Ch. 2 In = TRS (don't unbalance) to XLR (bal) cable
Eclipse Ch. 1 Out > Interface Ch. 1 = XLR (bal) to TRS (don't unbalance) cable
Eclipse Ch. 2 Out > Interface Ch. 2 = XLR (bal) to TRS (don't unbalance) cable

c. I guess I won't be doing both simultaneously since I'm not sure how to at this point (using line levels everywhere).

3) If this looks correct, the only question I have is whether or not I should go balanced-to-balanced between the G-Major and Eclipse (since both are balanced I/Os it seems like I should). I noted this with "don't unbalance." Same question with the Eclipse-to-Interface (both of which are balanced).

4) One final matter I did not see any posts about. Am I fine going G-Major > Eclipse? I want to use them together at times. Am I MUCH better off switching between them instead? Only a little better off, or no difference really?

Thank you. I think I am nearly there; time to fire this thing up and …
Jam

[IDeangelis]

Yes, Pin 2 being "hot" corresponds to the 1/4" tip.

There may be cables that are wired differently. That's why we post the specs on how we wire ours.

For question #2, I'll have a guideline you have to follow. Everytime you have a +4dB line level, the Eventide *MUST* be connected with its XLRs. For instrument signals, *USE* the 1/4". This is how we wire our units. Try keeping the connection balanced as much as you can. If  you need to unbalance it, always do so on the other ends of the cables connected to the Eventide, NOT on the ends connected to it. I have no specific answers on your setup as I don't know what kind of signal the TC accepts/sends out…and because it's not something we support.

3) answered above…keep things balanced if you can.

4) I would never connect any digital processor in series with another. Parallel schemes are much, much better. Using a splitter/mixer or a router is the key to better signal to noise ratio, system flexibility and creative routings. Check the technote on gtr rigs….and learn more about this by reading documentation and examples about an amazing device called Switchblade, FYI.

all the best

I

[jamminout]

Thank you very much for your kind assistance. I am very impressed with Eventide support.

Jam

[ulfiyya]

Hi Italo,

Can i program the Eclipse presets in H8000?

And also in serie, parallel and xfade in one singel DSP?

Thanks!

[IDeangelis]

Yes you can…IF you know how the Eclipse algorithms are made.

Series, parallel is not a problem.

Xfade doesn't make sense as you have two DSPs so you can:

-use the other DSP to switch to another preset

-build algorithms in a way that you can internally switch between parts of them (from a verb to a chorus, for instance).

best

I

[erikbojerik]

The way I hook it up is about like this –  run through the distortion/preamp first, then split the signal and send one to the Eclipse, and one to the Gmajor.  Then send the stereo outputs of both units to a line mixer for further level balancing and routing (two guitar amps in garage-band situation, or separate channels on the PA's mixer).

So you could end up with 5 channels going to the board for 1 guitar rig – amp mike (preferably dry), Eclipse L/R, Gmajor L/R.  Get a dedicated guy to ride those 5 faders for you at FOH and people will fall at your feet.

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