H8000FW pedals and foot switches strange behavior

[threiter1]

Hello,

this is my first post here. 

I used to control my old GTR 4000 with an ordinary (TRS) foot pedal and 2 foot switches. This was easy to set up and it always worked well: Plug in, assign, done.

I received a brand new H800FW a forthight ago and I'm getting more and more weird about setting up a foot pedal and 2 foot switches.

As long as I connect only 1 pedal or only 1 switch, it seems to work properly.

As soon as a second device (pedal or switch) is ASSIGNED somewhere (not necessarily physically connected!!), the H8000 FW behaves crazy.

Say I have 2 foot pedals ASSIGNED (not neccessarily connected) , each pedal assigned to a certain parameter of the program currently loaded, then both parameters will flicker  and display random values between 0 an 100 % . The audio result is many audible "clicks" per second. As said, it is not neccessary that there are 2 pedals really connected. It is enough that 2 pedals are assigned to whatever parameter in the program.

A different scenario is this:

If I assign one switch for "next program" , then the next program will be loaded upon the switch being pressed. This works well and reproducible. Now assign (not neccessarily connect) a further switch for "previous program" . What happens then? Say the H8000FW has currently loaded program #15 and the "next program" switch is pressed ONCE:  –> The H800FW will first jump to #14 and then "automatically" jump back to  #15. OR first jump to #16 and then back to 15 .

I have described two typical issues with my H8000FW. Above all I can say that the pedals and switches NEVER work properly as soon as more than 1 is assigned, and it seems to work properly as long as only 1 is assigned.

Any Idea? This unit is brand new and hasn't seen that much tweaks.

Thanks,

Thomas

[IDeangelis]

Hi Thomas

my feeling is about a hardware problem. If I patch a parameter to PEDAL 1 and no pedal is connected, the parameters stay at the value it was saved to, without jump up & down.

You may want to contact support@eventide.com

all the best

Italo

[threiter1]

Hello Italo,

could you try the following procedure, please, it takes only a few minutes. 

1. Assign a footswitch to <next program>

2. Assign a further footswitch to <previous program>

3. Connect the foot switches to the H8000FW and try to make some program changes.

4. Let me know what you see.

I would appreciate very much if you try this. I  have called Eventide helpdesk but for whatever reason they seem to have forgotten this issue.

Thanks,

Thomas

[Petja]

Hello, my first post too.

I have the same problem with my brand new H8000FW 5.5b.

Calibrating and setting up the pedals works perfectly, but only for a while. After some time the pedals freak out and start jumping around, sometimes one of them becomes completely unresponsive. They also interact with each other, I can see that in the pedal setup page. Clearing assignments, calibrating pedals or rebooting does not help. Loading an old setup from card does not help either, only clearing setup in the service menu gets the pedal setup working. Until it happens again.

I have a feeling it only happens here when assigning a pedal to wet/dry, but cannot confirm this yet, as it sometimes takes a long time until the misbehavior happens, and I mostly want to control wet/dry with the pedals anyway

Could this be a bug in 5.5b? There is also some strange "stickiness" in the assignments. If I clear/reset an (wet/dry) assignment, sometimes the blinking underline just doesn't go away, and the pedal still controls that parameter. It seems to work more reliably if I first set the assignment to "high", leave the page, and return to set it to off. Sometimes this has to be done several times until the assignment is really cleared.

I doubt these are hardware issues because after clearing the setup and re-assigning the pedals they work perfectly right away.

Best,

Petja

[IDeangelis]

Thomas & Petja

I'm starting tests right now. I'll be back to you ASAP.

best

I

[IDeangelis]

Thomas

I assigned two unlatched passive footswitches to NEXTPROG and PREVPROG. The footswitches (Proel-FSS-04)are connected to PEDAL2 input so they are seen as Tip2 & Ring 2.

They scroll presets in the currently displayed bank as expected.

What is exactly that is wrong there?

I'm on 5.5B1 system…and expect you to be on the same.

Please let me know.

All the best

Italo

[IDeangelis]

Petja

I need the *full* description of which pedal(s) is patched to which parameter(s). the whole thing!!!

Only way to try to duplicate a problem, if any.

thanks

I

[threiter1]

Hi Italo,

What you see is what I would want to see with my unit.

With exactly the setup that you describe (2 unlatch passive FS connected to tip 2 and ring 2)  I get the following result:

Pressing the "nextprog" FS will let the H8000FW jump from program n to n+1 and then automatically back to n. Alternatively, pressing "nextprog" FS will let the H8000FW jump from program n to n-1 and then automatically back to n. There are more possible scenarios I have seen in the meantime, but overall what definitely will not happen is that the H8000FW jumps from program n to n+1 and stay at n+1.

If I then unassign "prevprog" from ring 2 , then the "nextprog" FS will act as it should.

Above all I can say that my H8000FW behaves not as designed, almost unpredictable, as soon I have assigned more than 1 switch or pedal to tip 1,2 and/or ring 1,2.

With only 1 switch or pedal assigned, the H8000FW behaves perfectly well.

I have 5.3, and the H8000FW is not more than 4 weeks old. .

Since this is the OS version you currently ship I thought that this is aan acceptable and supported OS.

Should I move to 5.5?

Thanks,

Thomas

[IDeangelis]

Hi Thomas

thank you for your fast reply!

I don't recall any problem with OS V5.3. You should move to 5.5beta and test the footswitches again. This would clarify if there is an hardware problem. A test with a different set of footswitches would be even better; it will definitely show if the Eventide or the first set of fswitches is bad.

Please let me know.

all the best

Italo

[threiter1]

Hi Italo,

I can confirm almost  every issue that Petja describes.

It is really not neccessary to describe which the whole thing because the H8000FW Misbehavior  is so obvious!  Chose whatever pedal or footswitch and assign it to whatever parameter, then chose another pedal or footswitch and assign it to whatever.

Alternatively go through what Petja says. If in doubt , make assumptions.  You don't need to ask Petja for details.

It's really obvious !  It is apparent !  

Thomas.

[IDeangelis]

Thomas

I believe I know what I'm doing after 20 years using these units. trust me.

Petja describes using two pedals and patching to wet/dry. That's not enough as I need to know which pedal (1 or 2 or both) are patched to which wet/dry. There are 8 wet/dry parameters in an H8000FW. Assumptions don't help. Facts and accurate descriptions help a lot.

I have patched Pedal 1 to all 8 wet/drys here and everything works fine…..

So…please Petja….send all your patching descriptions and we'll try to replicate the problem.

Besides that, you guys are on two different OS……

I

[threiter1]

Italo,

1. Petja is on 5.5, I'm on 5.3.  We both see serious problems.

–> Moving from 5.3 to 5.5 will very likely NOT fix the problem.  

2. I have tested several pedals and switches, and what is more, they all work well with my GTR 4000 in the same applications. 

 –> it is very likely a H8000FW issue, probably an unknown SW issue.

Thabks,

Thomas

[IDeangelis]

Thomas

you see something different from what Petja sees, at least in the descriptions…and some of them are incomplete.

There might be a software issue..but also hardware issues are possible. If you follow my advice to move to 5.5 we'll make progress otherwise I can only conclude it's a hardware problem.

Please try.

thanks

I

[threiter1]

Hi Italo,

Sorry for the delay.

I rushed into town, bought a USB card adapter and upgraded to 5.5 (available on the eventide website).

The upgrade process was successful, however,

1. all the problems still persist.

2. I still can duplicate some of Petja's issues.

It is difficult describing details because what I see is so weird and chaotic.  

Please advice. 

Thomas

[Petja]

Ok, I did some shooting.

It's time consuming, sorry for the delay.

Starting with clearing setup in service menu.

Connect Boss FS-5U (unlatched) swich type pedal with mono cable to pedal 1, and another one to pedal 2.

In the pedal setup page, pedal 1 goes from 0%(not pressed) to jumping between 99.3% and 99.6% when pressed. Easily compensated by lowering the toe value a bit. No worries here. However, pedal 2 goes only to about 79% when pressed. This is easily compensated also, but it's interesting that swapping pedals does not change anything, it's still pedal 2 in the setup that doesn't go to full when pressed. I'm absolutely positive there are no issues with cabling or with the pedals themselves.

After adjusting heel and toe values both pedals work fine in the pedal setup page. Then go to levels, select only "dsp A out 1 wet/dry" (or some other), assign pedal 1 to it, press done. Now it is getting interesting: back in the machine A mix-page a blinking underline has appeared under "A out 4 wet/dry" (or some other), when I press the pedal, all 8 wet/dry levels on that page change values between 0% and 81%, according to the state of the pedal, (in the pedal setup menu it works full range) still only out 4 having the blinking underline, which I surely did not want to remote in the first place. I select the underlined out 4 to find out the assingnment is off, as it should, but the blinking stays, and the pedal still controls all 8 mixes. This "stickiness" and false assignments appearing at the mix page(s) is very random. And sometimes they seem impossible to remove.   I have NOT managed to reproduce any of this behavior two times EXACTLY the same way. It is always different.

Let's take another view and another pedal.

Starting with clearing setup in service menu.

Connect Ernie Ball 25k volume pedal (or Yamaha FC7 with switched polarity, or whatever) with standard insert cable to pedal 1 and it works perfectly in the pedal setup page. I go to pedal 2 (nothing connected to that) and see the percentage jumping between 96 and 99% all by itself, heel 0 toe 100, no physical pedal connected to pedal 2. 

In the levels machine A mix page I assign pedal 1 to out 1-4 wet/dry (or any other combination), pedal works fine but somehow out 3 wet/dry (or some other) does NOT have the blinking underline, still, the pedal controls it. Does not seem to affect the blinking misbehavior wether I choose the parameters "ganged" or individually.

Go back to pedals setup, connect a switch type unlatched pedal to pedal 2 jack with a mono cable. It goes from 0 to 100 as expected needing less than 1% adjusting of heel and toe values to work full range. It is the same physical pedal with the same physical cable in the same pedal 2 input, which in the previous example, few hours ago, wouldn't go above 79% without heavy adjustment of the toe value.

Disconnect the expression pedal from the pedal 1 jack and replace it with a momentary unlatched pedal, it switches values between 0 and 78% only, without heavy adjustment of toe value in the setup menu.  It is the same physical pedal with the same physical cable in the same pedal 1 input, which in the previous example, few hours ago, would go full range with very minor adjustments.  I adjust the toe value accordingly, to make it full range again.

Back in the levels menu I can confirm the switch pedal (1) controls machine A out 1-4 wet/dry as it should, out 3 still not underlined, but controlled properly by the pedal.

And finally a third example for the record: I had two unlatched swithes connected to pedal 1 and 2 respectively, with mono cables. When I pressed pedal 1, it worked as it should, but pedal 2 jumped like crazy as long as the pedal 1 was held. And same thing other way round, pedal 1 value freaked as long pedal 2 was held. This happened solely in the pedal setup menu, pedals were not assigned to anything.

I think this should be enough. I could go on and on and on. I could tell the same story in a thousand different ways, really, it is that random. And yet it happens every time. As I said:  I have NOT managed to reproduce any of this behavior two times EXACTLY the same way. I've tried numerous other pedal combinations also, two expression pedals, one expression and two switches, four switches, etc. It is always the same, first everything seems to work but eventually they freak out. Please don't ask me to check my pedals and cables, I'm new to H8000, but I do know my pedals and polarities and ohms. (I have some homemade optical ultra smooth expression pedals )

I would like to know if there is a way to confirm if we have a hardware problem?

Italo, how can we test that?

Best,

Petja

[IDeangelis]

Hi Thomas

unfortunately if we can't replicate a problem based off user's description, it's really hard if not impossible to diagnose the issue. From what I can see here and not being able to replicate the problem, I can only say that a hardware problem should be the issue. Thus the unit should come back at the factory for servicing.

Since I understand the unit is brand new, you may want to contact your dealer and check if they may help you or you need to contact support@eventide.com.

I'm sorry for the problems you are having but I'm not able to replicate the ones you have described, Thomas.

warm regards

Italo

[IDeangelis]

Hi Petja

thank you for your great report. This is really helpful in tracking the issues.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to reproduce any of the issues; particularly the first and the second you describe are the most important. I can see that the underline of 4 or 8 parameters may be not present but I wouldn't worry about that since the parameters are remoted correctly, at least here.

Looks like a hardware roblem to me, particularly because even you haven't been able to consistently reproduce this.

I'll point out this thread and your description to our system engineer and check what he thinks.

all the best

I

[nickrose]

Petja:

all 8 wet/dry levels on that page change values between 0% and 81%

This is probably expected behavior – the levels settings are a "gang", where one can select 1,2,4 or 8 values. If you have 8 values selected when you assign the pedal, they will all change.

Your problems may be caused by your use of mono cables – you should try stereo ones (TRS – tip/ring/sleeve). This is because each socket is wired for a pedal, with the SLEEVE connected to one end of the pedal track, with the slider connected to TIP. If you use a mono cable, there will be no proper pedal voltage supply, just a high impedance feed connected to the TIP which is designed for switch operation, and will not do well with a pedal.

You may still have some underlying software issue (this is why we have beta releases) but the fact that yourself and your colleague have similar problems with both 5.3 and 5.5B suggest otherwise. If you have the patience, be so kind as to try TRS cables and let us know how you get on.

[threiter1]

Hello Nick,

nickrose:

You may still have some underlying software issue (this is why we have beta releases) but the fact that yourself and your colleague have similar problems with both 5.3 and 5.5B suggest otherwise. If you have the patience, be so kind as to try TRS cables and let us know how you get on.

I use TRS-TRS cables for expression pedals and a Y-cable (TRS–>2xTS) for switches. This is exactly the same hardware that works well with my GTR 4000.

If I assign only one pedal or only one switch, then the pedal/switch behaves almost as expected regardless of what function the pedal/switch is assigned to ("almost" because there are some further issues of minor importance at the moment).

But if I assign a second pedal or switch to whatever function/parameter, then both pedals/switches behave unpredictable. Their values are both freaking around (producing audible clicks), they become dependent from each other (pressing switch/pedal 1 will generate significant artefacts at the parameter/function assigned to switch/pedal 2 and vice versa). This freaking behaviour persists  even if all hardware (pedals/switches) is removed from the H8000FW and only the assignments are there.

If I assign a third element (pedal or switch), then it's getting really crazy, absolutely uncontrollable. If you only could see that…

I still believe in a SW and not HW issue because of the unpredictability. I can consistently duplicate "crazy" behavior, but I can not duplicate a certain behavior.

 Thanks,

Thomas

[threiter1]

Hello Nick,

nickrose:

 If you have the patience, be so kind as to try TRS cables and let us know how you get on.

I use TRS-TRS cables for expression pedals and a Y-cable (TRS–>2xTS) for switches. This is exactly the same hardware that works well with my GTR 4000.

If I assign only one pedal or only one switch, then the pedal/switch behaves almost as expected regardless of what function the pedal/switch is assigned to ("almost" because there are some further issues of minor importance at the moment).

But if I assign a second pedal or switch to whatever function/parameter, then both pedals/switches behave unpredictable. Their values are both freaking around (producing audible clicks), they become dependent from each other (pressing switch/pedal 1 will generate significant artefacts at the parameter/function assigned to switch/pedal 2 and vice versa). This freaking behaviour persists  even if all hardware (pedals/switches) is removed from the H8000FW and only the assignments are there.

If I assign a third element (pedal or switch), then it's getting really crazy, absolutely uncontrollable. If you only could see that…

I still believe in a SW and not HW issue because of the unpredictability. I can consistently duplicate "crazy" behavior, but I can not duplicate a certain behavior.

 Thanks,

Thomas

[nickrose]

Obviously we are having trouble duplicating your problem. This is probably because you are doing something that we are not, or vice versa.

With this in mind, could you do a "clear setup", and then give a step by step description of the simplest possible route to demonstrate the problem. Like you, I think that this is probably a software issue, but unless we can see it we can't help.

I'm puzzled that above you say you use TRS cables, whereas before you referred to mono cables, which to my mind are TS.

[Petja]

***Warning: contains a newbie apology.

Hi all, thank you for your fast replies. This is absolutely the best and fastest possible customer support ever. Amazing you guys!

I believe we are dealing with more than one issue here, whacky pedals may be a hw issue (or an user error, like you're about to discover here), sticky assignments may be a sw issue.

I've wasted your valuable time on the pedal issue, err, , obviously, when assigning a switch type pedal I should be assigning "tips and rings 1&2" NOT "pedals 1&2" right? Seems to work a LOT better

Apologies, hopefully I don't have to come back to that. Thomas: sorry for kinda hijacking the thread , maybe this helps you too. I will focus on the sticky business from now on. So, for now, my pedals just behave. Oh, I see how they behave!

But my w/d menu doesn't.

Reproduce like this: connect any pedal to pedal 1 and check in pedals menu that it's working. Go to levels menu dsp a mix page and assign pedal 1 to some of the 8 w/d mixes. Works as expected. Now make more (pedal 1) assignments to other w/d mixes, be sure to do some operations "ganged", remove the assignments, do this many times, back and forth, different combinations at a time. Do this mindfully, though, you have to know what you have assigned and cleared to notice the misbehavior. And remember to rock the pedal all the time.

Can you see any assignments to "stick" after you have removed them? Maybe take a break and try again later? I don't care of the blinking underlines, that's a graphical bug maybe, but I just don't t seem to get any proper control over the w/d assignments with an expression pedal, after I've started messing with the (ganged) settings.

Actually, I've done some homework and here is my suggestion: there was a VERY similar bug in the Orville, check the archives.  I say this is the same bug!   Isn't it? The bug where "ganged assignments do not work reliably in the w/d pages".

I owe you an apology, no doubt, but if this is true, you owe me a special eastern egg , and the old *** (bug) should finally be squashed, shouldn't it?

Thank you and apologies.

I feel so much better now.

And my H8000FW  just behaves.

Best,

Petja

"private investigator" – mode off

[IDeangelis]

Hi Petja

this is the perfect example of why we are so *boring* in asking for details, details and details, all the times we have issues reports. When you folks have a problem and report that, you become our eyes, hands and ears through which we can get to a solution. Even the tiniest aspect is important here…and you are the living proof! Indeed Tip & Ring are to be used with switches assignments.

Good this has been sorted out.

Rgarding your second issue, assignments still sticking after removing them, I have just tried 5 different assignments to gangs of 2, 4 and 8 and to single w/d parameters. No problem whatsoever here. The only thing I'm seeing is that when assignments are rmoved, the w/d parameter(s) are left to a value different from 0% or 100%, but that's ok as a voltage is being removed. So…we would need another long report, with all the tiniest details about all patches (MIDI and non) and other connected gear…or mabe it's your pedal(s)?

The Orville bug was much worst. Gangs didn't work properly when assignments were made…you wouldn't have been able to hear the 8 channels w/d changing all together. That was fixed in day one on the H8000, years ago.

cheers

I

[Petja]

Hi Italo.

Here is a simple method to reproduce the stickiness exactly the same way in my machine, even without pedals.

Start by disconnecting everything except power cord, remove the card, select factory patch 12 "Thru" to both engines. Clear setup in the system menu (reboot). Connect two Boss FS-5U unlatched switch type pedals (x/tip & y/ring) to pedal 1 jack with an insert cable (two TS on the pedal end, one TRS on the other). In the levels menu highlight both A out1 w/d and A out2 w/d, ganged, that is. Press select, choose tip1, press x: get 0-100%. Press y: no activity, choose ring1, get 0-100% pressing y, press x: no activity. (The purpose of the last steps was just to confirm both switches work properly, full range, without interference of any kind.) Set "mode" back to tip1 (x), leave range and type at defaults, 100% and absolute, and press done.

Back in the A mix page I can see w/d of the out1 and 2 gone to 0%. Press x: get 100% for both. Works perfectly. Pressing y has no effect. (A graphical bug has appeared: a blinking underline only on out 2, missing from out 1.) Now I want y (ring1) to control out2, instead of x (tip1). Highlight only A out 2, press select, "mode" has value "off", should be tip1, another graphbug? Check if pressing pedals shows activity on this page with these settings, nope. Change "mode" to ring1, press y: get 100%, press x: nothing. Leave range and type at defaults and press done. Back in the levels page the stickiness has appeared: due to settings, A out1 and 2 should now be controlled with x & y separately. Situation is, that both are still controlled by pedal x(tip1), and out2 also with pedal y (ring1). The stickiness being obviously the pedal x(tip1) STILL controlling out2.

I can repeat this as many times as I want with any pedal combination possible. Actually the stickiness is not even pedal related, I have tested this with no pedals at all, with a midi controller, with exactly the same results. I've done it in every possible way and it is always the same. Point is: first assign 2 ganged, then cange the other individually, and that first assignment sticks. Is it okay that assignments that are first done as ganged, show "mode: off" when selected individually?

Questions:

1. Is there a way to confirm if I have a hardware issue, maybe a test procedure that an user can carry out?

2. Could this be due to corrupt data? What else should I reset in the machine?

3. Should I downgrade or reload the current os?

4. Should I start a new thread, since I hijacked this and it's actually off topic now?

Best,

Petja

[IDeangelis]

Petja

the magic of very detailed description!

Looks like user error to me.

You haven't removed the first patch (Tip 1 to Ganged w/d 1 &2)! By patching Ring 1 to w/d 2 alone you haven't actually killed the first patching (gang). Removing a patch requires to highlight the very same parameters and enter the patching area AND null the previously programmed patch.

So you haven't changed a patch (gang) to another (single), but simply overlapped them!

arf!

I

[Petja]

Thank you, Italo. Now you're talking.

Okay, this is what I expected to hear, even before my first post, actually.

I've searched the manual, can't find this.

Considering all possible ganging configuration options available (at w/d page), it seems to be possible to assign 4 different external controllers to same parameter, 3 by different gangs plus 1 by single assignment. I really thought ganging was just to speed up programming, and that a new assignment would automatically wipe out the old one, and that you could assign only one ext controller per parameter. I can't find this in the manual, apologies, again.

If I do overlapping assignments and forget what kind of gangs I have assigned, is there a method to reset them all for once, or make a ganged assignment that DOES wipe out the possible previous assignments?

Best,

Petja

[IDeangelis]

Petja

it's a pretty straight forward process. Gangs and single parameters are equal entities when it comes to patching controllers to them. It actually makes no or little sense to patch a controller to a gang and another controller to a gang member….

Gangs are groups of parameters…simply.

Don't overlap, don't patch too many controllers to parameters, write things down..and in case you get lost, use CLEAR SETUP to reinit the unit system to factory defaults.

Learn this forever: an assignment is ONLY wiped if you re_edit it exactly as it was originally created…and change controller or null it. Gangs don't wipe out single parameters patches and the opposite is also true.

Time to get some rest….

I

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