H9 : ModEchoVerb not running in dual mono

[zazula]

ModEchoVerb does not seem to be running in dual-mono.

I run an AB/Y splitter after my guitar and have in1/out1 -> Amp1 (clean) and in2/out2 -> Amp2 (dirty).

Most algorithms keep the output separate except ModEchoVerb.  I'm getting spillover between these two amps.

I cannot seem to find a setting to keep the channels isolated.  However, algorithms like DualReverb and DigitalDelay have dual-mono support.

As an aside, the treatment of dual-mono is different in DualReverb and DigitalDelay – maybe these could have similar controls?

DualReverb:

Reverb A/Reverb B Mix – [VRBMIX]: mixer for A and B reverbs, in stereo this mixes stereo
channels, set at extreme results in dual mono reverbs (A on left, B on right)

DigitalDelay:

Delay Mix – [DLYMIX]: Controls the relative level of the twin delays, Delay A and Delay B. […] For Stereo
output, with [DLYMIX] = 0, BOTH outputs will have only Delay A’s contribution. With
[DLYMIX] = 50, Delay A goes to Output 1 only and Delay B goes to Output 2 only. With
[DLYMIX] = 100%, BOTH outputs will have only Delay B’s contribution.

[zazula]

I went through the rest of my algorithms and I'm seeing very inconsistent treatment of these dual inputs.  It would be great to hear from someone if any of these are unexpected and bugs, or "just the way things work".  It seems the modulation and reverb algorithms are the ones with the worst bleed.

It may be that these are intended to be mono->stereo, but then maybe we could have a setting to force dual-mono?  

To test this, I ran the A/B setup above, enabled Input 1 (Amp A), put Amp A on standby and listened only to Amp B (Output 2).  The H9 is running in KillDry=Off (i.e., as a stomp box).  Where available, I put the A/B Mix settings on A10+B10 and Wet/Dry mix at 50%.

1. ModEchoVerb is the worst offender, the 100% DRY Input 1 signal joins the effected signal on Amp B

2. The following algorithms spilled 100% of the wet Input 1 signal into Amp B

Chorus
Flanger
Rotary
Crystals
MicroPitch
DynaVerb
BlackHole
Shimmer
Hall
Plate
UltraTap

3. The following algorithms had a minor spill of the Input 1 wet signal into Amp B

Ducked Delay
Tape Echo
Digital Delay
Vintage Delay
H910

4. The following algorithms were clean, but you could hear modulation artifacts in Amp B

Phaser
Q-Wah
TremoloPan

5. The following algorithms worked as I expected (no signal on Amp B)

DualVerb (A/B mix set to dual mono)
Diatonic 

#1 and #2 above seem like bugs to me, and make the pedal unusable in my A/B configuration (my clean guitar sound will get distorted reverb, not good).

#3 and #4 are OK for rock-and-roll (the enabled amp will cover the slight bleed) but it was noticeable in the standby scenario.

#5 were the only two algorithms that seemed to actually keep the outputs separate.  

[zazula]

Re-reading the manual, it appears the intention is for the dry signal to remain separated (see below).

That would indicate that ModEchoVerb is the true bug with Input 1 Dry going to Output 2.

The remaining ones would be a new feature request to have a dual-mono mode for the A/B setup above, with priority given to the ones listed in section #2.

From the manual:

The H9 detects which input and output jacks have cables plugged in and routes
audio I/O accordingly. With a Mono Input (Input 1) and Stereo Outputs, the dry
contribution for both outputs comes from the Mono Input (Input 1). With Stereo
Inputs, the dry contribution at Output 1 is from Input 1 and the dry contribution
at Output 2 is from Input 2, thereby maintaining the original signal stereo image. 

[DGillespie]

Hi Zazula,

I'll have to check #1 above with regards to the dry signal, as that probably shouldn't be the case.  However, for ModEchoVerb, and the one's you've listed under #2, this is the intent of the product.  Many times, especially in reverbs, but in many other effects as well, to create a convincing or desirable stereo effect you do blend the channels, or create crossfeed across different channels.  This is why a 5.1 surround reverb is not the same as 6 mono reverbs.  This is also why we added specific Dual Mono effects like Dual Verb to the Space, in case people did want to use this configuration.  I suppose we could update the documentation to call out if each effect is useable in a dual mono mode, or if it's stereo only.

I know this probably wasn't the answer you were hoping for, but I hope it helps.

Dan

[llemtt]

My experience about #3 on my TimeFactor is that actually it's a problem with the a/b mix control: dual mono occurs at 50% settting but while display shows A:10 B:10 the underlying parameter is not exactly at 50%.

Using the encoder "fine-tune" function helps a lot finding true 50% setting.

my .02

Teo

[zazula]

Hi Dan –

Thanks for the response and for looking into ModEchoVerb.

I get what you are saying about stereo reverb.  I'm an H8000FW owner and I'm sure this attention to detail is why I love its reverb algorithms.  The H9 sounds great and I wouldn't propose limiting the true stereo reverbs.

Short of a global dual-mono mode, it would be nice if a few presets had a dual-mono mode to help for people with similar dual-mono amp setups.  Here is my wish list:

1. DynaVerb : the only verb with ducking and it does not have dual-mono
2. ModEchoVerb : it's so versatile, it would cover a lot of ground
3. MicroPitch : I was going to suggest "Chorus" but this can cover that ground and a bit more

Of course, as I use the H9 more, I'm sure others would come up, so a global dual-mono would be a nice long term addition.

Again, my goal isn't running the inputs at the same time, it's keep them separate so while Input1 is driving my clean signal chain, I'm not getting its effects through Output2, my distorted signal chain.

Thanks for listening,
Z

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