H9 vs Factor pedals

[madmac]

Why does the same preset on Timefactor and H9 sound slightly different?

I have tried different bypass settings, same bypass settings on both but for some reason they delays sound slightly different even with the same preset loaded on each.

The H9 sounds seems to have slightly more treble and is a bit brighter sounding and the TF which has a slightly warmer sound.

[nickrose]

They have some differences in the analog sections, which might place less load on the guitar.

[madmac]

Thanks for that.

I checked the voltages of both of the eventide power supplies with a meter and noticed that the Factor power supply puts out 12VDC and the new H9 one is only 9VDC.  

If I power both the H9 and the TF with 12VDC then they both sound pretty much identical.  It shouldn't take too much tweaking to get them the same.

The new H9 power supplies are nice, small and light but powering them with 12V sounds way better at least with my setup.  More headroom. 

[caribefatboy]

That is a surprise to learn that Eventide is cutting corners on the power supplies of such an expensive pedal?!

[tsutek]

Interesting find! I'm all for maximizing the sound quality of my H9. Any further info or sound demos on this 9V/12V sound difference would be greatly appreciated.

Hoping someone at Eventide could chime in on this as well.. I mean, is it safe to use 12V with the H9? If it's not going to break anything, I'm getting a 12V compatible adapter just to test this for myself..

Cheers

[wedelich]

The H9 has a regulated power supply, so the voltage alone isn't the complete picture of its power supply needs.  What matters is that voltage is an appropriate range with enough current to meet the minimum wattage requirements.  

If you look on the back of the H9 by the power jack you'll see the screen printing that reads 9-12 VDC, 4.5W.   We know that Watts = Volts * Amps, so doing the simple math…..at 9 Volts you'll need at least 500 mA, and at 12 Volts you'll need at least 375 mA for normal operation. 

Of course we can't vouch for every power supply. Just because another supply has the right numbers doesn't mean it's giving clean even power.  Obviously we can't guarantee 3rd party power supplies outside of our recommendations.  

[LA Keys]

"That is a surprise to learn that Eventide is cutting corners on the power supplies of such an expensive pedal?!"

I don't think so… Look around and you will see that a 9V, 12V or even a 24V power supply will cost about the same, for the same wattage (power). Higher voltage definitively does NOT translate to more expensive electronic (Luckily for EU contry running on 220V instead of 110V)

Also, I'm pretty sure that the electronics inside is running at 3.3V or 5.0V and for that reason there's certainly a voltage regulator inside the pedal itself, reducing the voltage even lower than 9v. This is because ALL todays microprocessors, memories and other chips are running at either 5.9v or 3.3v…

There's maybe some "obscure" reason why one could see a difference between using a 9v or 12v power supply, but I believe this is mostly suggestive difference.

LA

[LA Keys]

Eventide staff beat me on this one… With the unfair advantage that my post was delayed until approval… by the staff…

LA

[wedelich]

I really did beat you, I didn't see your post waiting for moderation until after I posted mine

Otherwise, I wouldn't have wasted my time when we have such great customers willing to do our work for us on the forums!  So…Thanks!

[LA Keys]

EDIT:

This is because ALL todays microprocessors, memories and other chips are running at either 5.9v or 3.3v…

Should have read:

This is because ALL todays microprocessors, memories and other chips are running at either 5.0v or 3.3v…

LA

[LA Keys]

"I really did beat you"

Yeah… You're right, can't argue with the timestamp. But I'm sure I started to type my answer before you (Hehehe, slow "typer" here)

LA

P.S: You guys are awesome!

[nickrose]

Sorry guys – don't think that the supply voltage will normally affect the sound quality – the internal voltages are all regulated for stability.

If the voltage is way too low, you might hear bad things (mains hum ?) and if it is way too high, the smoke will get in your eyes.

[madmac]

There is a subtle difference between the two.  With the quick testing that I did I used:

1.Eventide Timefactor – powered by Factory Eventide power supply (12VDC – 1200mA)

2.Eventide H9 – same presets powered by Eventide factory power supply – (9VDC – 500mA)

3.Eventide H9 – same presets powered by Eventide Timefactor power supply – (12VDC – 1200mA)

4. Both units powered from isolated Decibel 11 Hotstone deluxe (12VDC 400mA outputs) – http://www.decibel11.com/Hot-Stone-Deluxe-Power-Supply.html

I understand what you are saying from a technical standpoint in regards to the lower internal voltages for the microprocessors that it doesn't make sense that they would sound different.  

When I get a chance I might put together some recordings of both units with the Eventide Factory power supplies.  

It is more noticeable with some Algorithms than others.  If you have a Timefactor and a H9 try the H9 with both the 12VDC Factor power supply and the H9 9VDC switchmode power supply with the Digital and Vintage Algorithms.

Maybe as nickrose says it is the "difference between the analog sections in the circuits".  

All I know is that I have been using the TimeFactor for about 5 years and have spent a lot of time getting my presets to sound right with my setup so I want to make sure I can duplicate the sounds on the H9's before taking the TF of my pedalboard.

With a bit of tweaking Im sure I will get these close enough and playing live in a band mix you're most likely not going to be able to hear the difference.

Im happy to share some of my U2 presets should anyone like to try it out.

[Bodde]

Interesting. I have always thought (and hoped) they were 100% with no sound difference at all. Can someone from Eventide conform this?

[wedelich]

We're not aware that they sound any different.  One would need to do a proper scientific single or double blind test to rule out bias (I know, I know, but let's be honest, we're all inherently biased once we set our minds to something).  

The real test would be the on DSP bypassed sound.  You mentioned  Vintage and Digital Delay presets sounding different with different power supplies.  Are you sure you turned off all modulation?  Many of those algorithms' presets have subtle, slow and non-deterministic modulation that affects the high end response over the long course (think 30 secs to a minute). Basically what I'm saying is rule out all the uncontrollable complexities to get a to trustworthy baseline.  We did a fair amount of this while developing the H9 and migrating the algorithms.  

The analog circuitry is a bit different due to H9 having input level adjustment, and we did do our best to match the gain staging.  It's a possibility that there is a small, but measurable difference, but we did not find it to be actually perceivable, or at least negatively so.   

[KCStratman]

I agree with nickrose that the difference in analog circuitry and automated input gain control loads the guitar input slightly differently with the H9 sounding a tiny bit more "sterile" than the Factor pedals, a just barely audible difference with some effects, with guitar plugged directly into pedal. With an active buffer or driver between guitar and pedal – high quality compressor, preamp pedal, or buffered output tuner – the difference is imperceptible to my ears. The manually switchable input and output levels of the Factor pedals are a definite plus for matching gain levels with other devices, particularly the differing levels encountered in guitar amp effects loops.

[madmac]

Thanks Russell

I really appreciate the support offered on this forum!  Its great that you guys spend so much time answering all the tech stuff – It really helps us get the most out of the pedals!

The ultimate goal in all this is to replace the (heavier & larger) Timefactor with the much lighter and way more capable H9.  I think they are sounding very close and we are only talking about subtle differences in tone.  I'm not sure that I can really rule out modulation as I use it in most of my TF user presets – it just sounds awesome and is probably one of the may reasons why the TF is such a great pedal.  And perhaps this is why its difficult to get them to sound 100% the same as it is adding complexity.  The TF is hard to beat. 

I've been testing with an DPDT – AB switch with both pedals set to DSP bypass.  This enables me to switch the signal between the H9 or Timefactor eliminating any impedance load differences in the chain before or after.

Does the stock settings on the input gain of the H9 need to be adjusted in H9 Control to match the stock settings of the TimeFactor?  

Whats the best method to adjusting presets in the Vintage Digital Delay or Mod Delay in regards to modulation settings to achieve similar results between Factors and H9's?  A few of my U2 presets rely heavily on the modulation settings in Mod Delay.

Thanks.

[CARLOS GALVEZ]

Yesterday I was spending a lot of time comparing my H9 and my PitchFactor with exactly the same presets and In/Outs cofigurations and I realized that there are silightly differences between the sound of each pedal…

I liked more the sound on the PitchFactor and I was thiking that my H9 was defective… but now that I read this thread, I can see that I’m not the only one that can hear these differences…

Like “Madmac” says… the H9 is slighty brighter and cuts the bass frequencies a bit… and the Factor pedal is slightly wamer and doesn’t cut the bass…

Whatever the reason… it’s a fact… there are sound differences between the H9 and Factor pedals… subtle differences but are there

 

 

[monkoustic]

i’m so glad that i’m not the only hearing this. i’ve always thought the high end sounds very hyped (although it could be a lack of fullness in the low end as well) when i compare the tape echos from the H9 to the Timefactor, the difference is pretty obvious. i thought it was somekind of algorhythm, but i’m sad if it’s hardware based.i was so confused that i took the H9 and set up a reverb then just listened to it against an ancient Lexicon LXP and PCM70 reverb. the lexicons are much much fuller and warmer. I’m wondering if Eventide might be willing to look at what is causing what i percieve as a hyped high end, almost brittle, texture to the H9. i was hoping to be able to either replace the PCM70, timefactor etc (or at least switch between them, but the difference is pretty stark. i can set the amps up to sound good with the H9, but then they sound weird with everything else. I like the functionality of the pedal, but with the exception of the gimmicky stuff where i don’t mind it (crystals, etc), i’m finding it challenging to get a solid, warmish tone from the pedal

[monkoustic]

the Eventide dude/dudette mentioned that there might be difference in the input load? is there a way to compensate for this? either within the pedal or with a boost/impedance matcher or something? 

 

thanks!

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