H9000R and 4 Cable Method (4CM) for guitar rig

[J20056]

The idea is to put certain FX before the preamp section of a guitar amp, ,and others after. This can only be done with an amp that has an FX loop, which most do.
The video and tutorial on the URL below explains it perfectly and shows why it is so crucial for guitar tones.

https://guitargearfinder.com/guides/use-four-cable-method/

The sequence I am trying to do therefore, looks like this:
guitar —> FX Chain1 —> gtr preamp —> FX Chain2 —> gtr power amp
The 4CM explains how to use both the send/return loop of the amp as well as a given gtr processor to wire the above.
My goal is to do the same thing with an H9000R (same for H9000 since same I/O).
This is important because a delay or reverb should always be in Block2 (especially for high gain lead tones) whereas certain Fx like wah, compression, boost and flanger typically work best in Block1.
I am unsure how to do this with a H9K but I am thinking the following and would welcome suggestions from others and even tide.

Method:
1. Use a multi-channel analog interface via DB25 analog in and outs. In my case I soldered a 6×2 snake I/O ‘stage” box on one end with a pair of DB25 connectors on the other.
2. Since the above is analog and instrument level, I need to use an instrument DI box to raise the guitar signal to line level before hitting the FX Chain1 (hopefully won’t degrade tone)
3. Create an FX Chain 1 with the desired algos, using the DI as an input.
4. I now need to send the output of FX Chain1 to my preamp input, which is connected via the snake I/O box.
5. I now need to take the output of my preamp, from the ‘SEND’ output of my amp FX loop and wire it into FX Chain2 input. This can be done also via another input from the snake I/O box
5. Take the output of FX Chain2 and wire it to the ‘RETURN’ port of the guitar amp which is also connected to the snake I/O box

So this is the plan. I was wondering if others have done something similar but for the moment. I can’t think of another approach. I suppose it may add a tiny amount of latency but I don’t think there is a way around it as I am effectively using the H9K as two independent processors, each having its own, and in this case, additive, latency.
I know there have been discussions at Eventide about providing connectivity between FX Chain I/O, although I am unsure if this would help here since I have to go out of the box to the guitar FX loop, but I mention it, because most guitar FX processors like thenAxeFX and the Helix have their own Send/Return loops to allow for the 4CM to be implemented. I suppose such design also requires some incremental latency as well, so nothing different versus my approach?

Anyways, I hope,guitar players find this useful, but I am really interested in knowing how others are approaching this problem?

[J20056]

I am wondering if I need a re-amp box (inversé of a DI) box when going from FX Chain1 which is line level back into the input the guitar pre, which is high impedance instrument level. My understanding is that this typically requires a re-amp box, which sounds almost like a DI box but inverted?
Hoping some experienced users can share some light.

[nickrose]

Probably not. You use a DI box to go from  high impedance guitar signal to a low impedance line or mixer input. Assuming your levels are OK, no worry.

 

[rvickers]

I’ve been doing this for a while.  I have the H9000 wired into a Sound Sculpture Switchblade GL.  I then can put any of the EFX engines in front or behind an AMP in 4CM.  I then have the optical looped back to itself on the H9000 in case I want two FX Chains in either position.  There is almost no latency and this is with the amps in a tracking room and being heard back thru studio monitors with a bunch more AD conversion.  Yes it is there, but you should be able to handle it.  Any buffer sensitive stuff is right after the guitar in a relay switcher.  The tone is effected, but it just means you have to dial things to get what you want.  Don’t go into this stuff thinking that you can dial amps the same as when you are connected right to it.

As an added bonus the same H9000 is wired into the studio via DANTE card and by simply changing sessions I can use it in studio mix mode without touching a cable.  It’s an amazing machine.

Sounds like you are having fun too!

 

[J20056]

Interesting because I too own a SwitchBlade GL. However, the main reason I am trying to implement this was to try and get rid of the SwitchBlade in order to simplify my rack, and get rid of pedals completely.
While Emote is quite usable, it is very hard to compete with the editor WinBlade as you well know.
I went as far as buying a reamp box so I can use one H9000 FX Chain in front of my guitar amps (Mesa MarkV-25 or TriAxis+2020).
Anyways the bottom line is that it is challenging to replace the SwitchBlade but I think I’m going to make it work and have a portable rack.
Would be useful to compare setups and experiences further.

[J20056]

rvickers,

 

couple of follow-up questions as I am now thinking about putting the SwitchBlade back in service based on your workflow description.

I assume you are talking about the ADAT Toskink cable in a “self” loop so that for example, FXChain1 output could be routed to say the input of ADAT1-2, then FXChain2 could pickup the output of FXChain1 in series by using ADAT1-2 output (itself looped to its on 1-2 input)?

Are you then using the 8 DB25 Analog In/Out to go in and out of the SwitchBlade GL? 

Assuming that is your workflow, my problem is that I don’t have a Dante, and in fact, was using ADAT to connect to my TASCAM DM4800 digital mixer in the control room, so that woud no longer be usable, and as I understand it, I would not be able to simultaneously use another digital output like say XLR AES as the H9K can currently only use one set of digital I/O.

So without a Dante, it seems like I would not be able to use both the SwitchBlade and connection to my DM4800?

Would you concur with my analysis?

Lastly, how do you take signal from the H9K, which is line level and low Z, and inject it in front of a guitar preamp (which is high Z) without a reamp box?

[nickrose]

As long as the H9K output is of a sufficient level, you can connect it directly to your high impedance input.

Low will drive high, but high does not like to drive low. You only need further matching if the level is too low.

 

[J20056]

Thanks for the very detaile info @rvickers

The two reasons I tried abandoning to SwitchBlade were (a) the line level constraints you mention (although my prior rack unit was SB based and I too had learned how to navigate around the line level constraints of the SB), and (b) simplifying my rack. Funny enough, I sold the SwitchBlade on eBay, and the buyer was essentially unable to cope with the line level limitations, and send super hot clean preamp signal in the unit, whihc distorted. He concluded my unit was defective, so I took it back.

I admit i am reluctant to have to worry about that issue again, thence my hope to use the H9000 and Emote as a SwitchBlade replacement, but after discovering the routing limitations of the H9000/Emote (at least relative to a SwitchBlade, whihc is a very high standard as far as routing) and based on your feedback, I am now seriously reconsidering including it again.

I guess I am unsure how I am going to get my 3 outputs (WetLeft-DryCenter-WetRight) into my mixer if all 8 analog and ADAT are used up though.

What about USB then? Is it in a format that my TASCAM digital mixer can handle, or I need one more piece of hardware?

 

[J20056]

So specifically as far as USB, I’m now thinking to use it as an interface to LogicProX, which means I can record right away with lowest possible latency. Then for late night monitoring when the kids are sleeping, i could just buss the channels from LPX back into my mixer and into my monitors. Then I may not need Dante? What do you think?

[joecozzi]

Connecting the H9000 to a guitar amp using the 4CM is all about matching the proper impedances going in and out of the amp. Remember that the H9000 first and foremost is a high-end studio effects processor, and almost always prefers to run at +4dBu for optimal results. With the 4CM, mitigating noise outside of the H9000 is just as important because unlike a studio environment where we would typlically run balanced signals, with guitar rigs, we're forced to run unbalanced cables in and out of amps and effects loops. Also, you have to study what kind of signals your amp's effects loop prefers and this requires a bit of trial an error. Experiement with running signal out of the H9000 at -10dBv or +4dBu. For my project, short of commissioning a custom interface, which has been the norm for most touring musicians who have used Eventide studio processors in live guitars rigs, I chose Radial J48 direct and Reamp boxes, because of all the ones accessible to me, they offered the best features (pads, phase reversal) and most QUIET signal of all.

To start, I began trying to achieve consistent volume with the H9000 in the loop bypassed or engaged. I also compared my signal without running it into the amp's effects loop; my Mesa/Boogie Rectifier 25's have a switch that allow me to turn the loops on or off. I do this to ensure I'm preserving volume consistency and preventing any tone suck. The next challenge was figuring out a way to combine the H9000s FX Chains. As of this post, we're currently not allowed to do it internally. I chose the rackmountable RJM Effects Gizmo because it allows me to engage FX Chains as if they were loops on a pedalboard, but most importantly, because it allows me to maintain balanced signals in and out of the H9000; moreover, the Effects Gizmo is switchable via MIDI, which I paired with their powerful RJM Mastermind GT16 floorboard for maxlimum control. A side note: there is a version of the Effects Gizmo that runs entirely balanced, which would be optimal to run more than two H9000 FX Chains together. For my rig, I chose the stock Effects Gizmo, which has four balanced loops (9,10,11,12), enough for two effects chains.

My signal flow is as follows:

1. Guitar into the input of the RJM Effects Gizmo. On the back of this unit there is an output "from the front" that I connect to a Radial J48 DI to convert the guitar's high-impedance signal to low-impedance. I connect this to the H9000 XLR input 1.
2. Inside of the H9000, I split the signal from XLR input 1 and feed it to inputs 1&2 of FX Chain 1, which I will feed the inputs of my amps. FX Chain 1, therefore, will be all the effects I want to send to the front of the amp, typically all gain-based effects like EQ, compression, drive, distortion, pitch-shifting, wah, and some modulation.
3. I take the outputs of FX Chain 1 out of the H9000 using hardware outputs 1&2 via DB25 and into the loop Returns, 9 for left,10 for right, of the RJM Effects Gizmo. This requires a DB25-TRS 8Ch snake. I use Mogami. I then take RJM loop outputs 9&10 into the front of the amps using humbuster cables. Because amps do not accept balanced signals, you'll have to run channels 1&2 of the H9000 at -10dBv and use this humbusting cable that allows for noise rejection with devices with regular, non-balanced inputs. You can make your own by taking a regular TRS cable and simply re-soldering the Ring tip to the shield or ground on one side. Connect the re-soldered end to the amp. Best-Tronics also sells them. Note: You can adjust the H9000 analog reference signals (-10dBv or +4dBu) in stereo pairs by pressing the Setup button and adusting "analog refs". The same can be found on Emote.
4. From the amps' effects loop SEND using regular unbalanced cables, I connect to a Radial J48 DI boxes to go from a high-impedance signals to low-impedance signals. I take the XLR out of the J48 boxes and into loop Inputs 11&12 of the RJM Effects Gizmo. I then take loop 11&12 Send of the RJM into H9000's channels 3&4 via another DB25-TRS snake.
5. Inputs 3&4 of the H9000 are routed to FX Chain 2, which will process my amp's effects loop, typically all time-based effects – delays, reverb, modulation, etc. I keep channels 3&4 of the H9000 running at +4dBu for optimal signal. I route the output of FX Chain 2 to hardware output 3&4 of the H9000, which I send out via DB25-TRS 3&4 to channels 11&12 Return loops of the RJM Effects Gizmo.
6. The loop outputs of channels 11&12 of the RJM Effects Gizmo go back to the amps's effects loop Return using TRS to XLR cables. Because the signals coming out of the H9000 are balanced, I use Radial Reamp boxes to convert low-impedance back to high-impedance signals, which the amps are more suited to. The Reamp boxes accept the XLR connectors and output signal through unbalanced cables that get connected to the amps' RETURN input.

Keep in mind that any disconnection of cables or muting of FX Chains will cut the signal because it closes the loop from the front of the amp through the effects loop. Because I'm only dealing with ONE pre and post loop, I leave them on all the time. If you need more than one H9000 FX Chain for pre, post, or both, you'll have to opt for the fully balanced version of the RJM Effects Gizmo, which would allow you to switch loops without closing the circuit, as if you had a loop switcher on a pedalboard.

Radial J48s require phantom power, so I use phantom power adapters in between wherever the use of J48s is noted. They are also not in the diagram. Why get so complicated? Because they sound amazing and are ultra quiet. Best of all, NO TONE SUCK! It feels and sounds 'same as cable' to me.

See the attachement for the wiring diagram.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[J20056]

Wow, so much to experiment with.
My amp, Mesa Boogie MarkV-25 has a XLR CabClone output and I can turn the speaker off. I did A/B comparisons in the past versus mixing the cab and it is very close; Clearly awesome for silent recording late at night.
I had success with the USB cable, so now I have another 16 I/O available, and since my mixer is digital, I can literally take the signal into LPX from the USB, then shoot it back to my mixer on 16 faders with zero additional latency via a FireWire interface between my mixer and my MacPro.
So all this works and I simply have to figure out how many SBGL I/O I need and painstakingly rewire with the usual specialized cables that I need to resolder for unbalanced gear. I bought a Radial JCR reamp box so I can an experiment to see if it helps for the FXChain in front of the MarkV.
I still need to digest some of the info that both of you have provided, but admittedly I am glad to reintroduce the SwitchBlade GL to my setup as I missed its flexibility.
I’ll report on my progress.

[J20056]

First Happy New Year 2020 to the Eventide family of users! May the tone be with you!

@rvickers:

I did a simple SBGL experiment whereby I plugged the guitar in one input and connected (in SBGL) to an output connected directly top the high Z input of myMarkV guitar amp. This was via unbaanced cable TS-TS. I carefully set a microphone and recorded the noise level of a high gain (IIC+) guitar tone. This way, I can see the level in LogicProX by the height of the signal bar (requires vertical zooming).

I then took the SBGL output and fed it directly into a Radial JCR re-amp box via TRS-XLR balanced into the reamp box, then unbalanced TS-TS into the MarkV high Z input.I recorded the noise level, and compared it in LPX. Surprisingly, it is 100% identical, both as measured in LPX as well as by just (subjectively) listening. I re-read the SBGL manual, and it says that all I/O is buffered, and the impedance is 1 megaOhm. 

So it appears that the SBGL does act as a re-amp box already, and there is no need for one. Furthermore, I was not using any DI for the guitar and plugged it stright into the SBGL.

UNbless I’m missing somehting, it therefore doesn’t appear that there is any need for DI or re-amp when using the SBGL, UNLESS things start to matter when connecting line level devices like the H9000? This is my next step now that the SBGL is back into my rack.

Curious to know what you guys think?

 

@joecozzi: Thanbk you so much for the detaied explanation and diagram. As I see it, the RJM device you use which has 4 balanced loops is akin to aSwitvhBlade. However, you clrarly and carefully use DI and re-amp boxes in your setup, so wondering whether it is necessary because the RJM doesn’t have the buffers and high Z that the SBGL has or any other reason?

 

 

[J20056]

I totally agree that a SBGL can be made to work by properly adjusting levels strategically by spending time, as I got it work well with a Boogie MarkV in IIc+ high gain mode with no issues, and high output TriaXis clean tones.

Once I got the H9000, I decided to sell th SBGL on eBay. The buyer returned it after 2 days as he couldn’t get over the levels issue. I’m so glad it happened in hindsight because I am excitedly going to re-integrate in my new rig with the H9000.

I can’t wait for the ability to change Scenes via MIDI. Last missing functionality.

[J20056]

Scenes functionality is not available on the H9000R unfortunately. Been told by Eventide that it’s a high priority understandably.

[J20056]

To close the loop on this (pun intended) I discussed with the owner of SoundSculpture, maker of SwtichBlade GL and other cool products. Here is answer. Quick version is that the SBGL does not need any DI or ReAmp boxes to connect a guitar, a line level device such as the H9000 or a guitar amp FX loop. The SBGL does have some headroom bandwidth, which is completely manageable and only deters unsophisticated users. I guess what I’m thinking now is to have one FX Chain with IO set at -10dbV for the FX in front of the guitar preamp (form guitar) and and 3 FX chains set at +4dbU for line level coming from FX loops and other guitar preamps (TriAxis).

 

From Ken @ SoundSculpture

 

 

There are always 2 things to consider when interfacing a guitar to anything (or anything to anything).  One is the level of course and the two common levels are as you mentioned, -10 and +4.  -10dBv is considered “instrument” level and is typically the level seen by a guitar output or the output of a common stomp box guitar effect.  Line is simply a signal that is about 12dB hotter.  The level of a signal is not related to the other thing that needs to be considered, namely the impedance which is essentially the “drive” capability of a source.  There is only one place where impedance is of concern here and that is the output of a guitar which has very little “drive”.  This is not to be confused with level.

 

So to answer your question, the GL will “buffer” the guitar signal, which is what you want, although will not change the level.  From there, the GL output can go directly into the h9000r with that unit set to -10dBv (instrument level) so it can use the lower signal level of the guitar.  The output of the h9000 should also be set to -10dBv so the level coming out of the unit is the same as the level going in (guitar level).  An output from the GL can then be plugged directly into your amp and it will also see a guitar level signal.

 

No reamp is needed.

 

Hope that helps.

[J20056]

nickrose wrote:

Probably not. You use a DI box to go from  high impedance guitar signal to a low impedance line or mixer input. Assuming your levels are OK, no worry.

 

 

@nickrose: By guitar preamp, I mean the TS 1/4″ instrument input of a guitar amp that has an FX loop. Such input is high impedance, so if I want to use a H9K FXChain like say compressor or flanger, and put it in front of the preamp, then the signal, whihc coming from the H9K is low Z, would need to be transformed (pun intended) to hihg Z, whihc as far as I know can only be done by a reamp box. I am wondering how @rvickers does that?

[rvickers]

J20056 wrote:

rvickers,

 

couple of follow-up questions as I am now thinking about putting the SwitchBlade back in service based on your workflow description.

I assume you are talking about the ADAT Toskink cable in a “self” loop so that for example, FXChain1 output could be routed to say the input of ADAT1-2, then FXChain2 could pickup the output of FXChain1 in series by using ADAT1-2 output (itself looped to its on 1-2 input)?

Are you then using the 8 DB25 Analog In/Out to go in and out of the SwitchBlade GL? 

Assuming that is your workflow, my problem is that I don’t have a Dante, and in fact, was using ADAT to connect to my TASCAM DM4800 digital mixer in the control room, so that woud no longer be usable, and as I understand it, I would not be able to simultaneously use another digital output like say XLR AES as the H9K can currently only use one set of digital I/O.

So without a Dante, it seems like I would not be able to use both the SwitchBlade and connection to my DM4800?

Would you concur with my analysis?

Lastly, how do you take signal from the H9K, which is line level and low Z, and inject it in front of a guitar preamp (which is high Z) without a reamp box?

Happy to share.  I thought about trying to get the SB out of the equation too, but it just really makes working with tons of random stuff easy and I am a bit of a control freak.  I still love a lot of my anaolg stuff to the point that the writing rig has switching units in different places of the signal chain and buffers strategically placed to allow everything to react as best as possible in this complex scenario.  Also, you have to be ok with the headroom issues of SBGL that some folks tend to feel robs the line level stuff of some of its mojo.  However, I am fine getting around it.  Some might not be.  This works for me, but I understand everyone has different issues to get around.  I’ll share thoughts below:

– Yes, I am using a optical cable connecting the in and out of the ADAT I/O.  That sounds like a no go for you.  I have not tried to use the AES and ADAT at the same time, but it looks like you could as long as the routing fits in the current FXChain model.  Again, I have not tried that.  If it is a lift you can do, I very much recommend embracing DANTE.  It has covered a lot of ugly routing etc for me.  It is unfortunately an investment to get it integrated right.  I don’t need DANTE for my guitar rig, but being able to switch imediately using the H9K as EFX at mix is pretty priceless.  I typically print effects as I play off the effects anyway.  If I want really hiFi stuff I will have the H9K in DAW or after mics, or Fryette PS2, Two-Notes Live, Suhr RL.

– I keep analog I/O 1/2 with physical XLRs on the H9K open in case I ever need to integrate another peice.  The rest of the 8 I/Os (via DB25) are then connected to SBGL loops.  I can now matrix 6 I/O pairs any way I want.  I use the ADAT I/O to put FX chains in series if I want to avoid the AD/DA trip.  This allows me to do a lot of cool stuff.  I can run two amps with both amps having a FXChain in front and behind the amp.  In general I run one amp with 2 FXChains in front and 2 behind so I can use IA style midi switching to turn on and off effects.  My RJM mastermind is then in total controll and I can avoid switching latency.

– The line level issues are not as big of a problem with the SBGL as it fully balanced buffers every loop.  Not all SBs are balanced.  Also why Fuzzes sound like poop in it.  Now, having said that, I am simply ignoring any rules here and just do it.  There is a slight noise floor and I certainly loose a bit of dynamic and feel going into the amp compared to plugging my guitar straight in.  Again, I make it work for me.  I use lots of variying degrees of gain too with no problem.  I work around the issues, it’s not perfect.  I do have a lot of experience building a guitar rack system so there are no noise issues caused by ground loops etc.  A strong ground loop would certainly be a mess here.  I’m guessing you have this experience too so you should be good.

– I do have the ADAC levels for analog 3/4 set to -10 for routing to and from the preamp sections.  Again, not following any rules, I just beat everything to death untill it does what I want.  I’m very pleased with this and it works great with all my amps.  The only caveat is if you are using without a buffered effects loop you will want one.  IE:, I use a ELI tube loop unit with my Two-Rocks.

– Should also note, I currently load down about 16 different amps into 2 PS2s and use the loop of the PS2 via the SBGL to have the whole rack used with any amp instantly.  This is done with 2 Kahayan midi amp switchers.  Most of my time is studio work.  Live, I scale down a lot but the SBGL is still involved. in fact, I have SB8Fs to shrink things even smaller but have the analog matrix ability.  I have not used the H9K with the SB8F yet so the fact it isnt balanced might be an issue.

Hope this helps with some ideas.  I’ll try to answer any specific questions if any. 

 

[rvickers]

J20056 wrote:

So specifically as far as USB, I’m now thinking to use it as an interface to LogicProX, which means I can record right away with lowest possible latency. Then for late night monitoring when the kids are sleeping, i could just buss the channels from LPX back into my mixer and into my monitors. Then I may not need Dante? What do you think?

If I am reading and understanding correctly, You can do this even without USB assuming you already have a DAW interface.  Remember, you don’t have to connect all the DB25 jacks to the SB.  In fact doing the following should help with noise as well.  The catch is I’m not sure what your Dry center is if you are wanting to do silent recording. I’m not clear on the LPX use etc. Anyway, use this as a guide with your actual setup:

– Loop ADAT for internal routing

– use IO 1/2 to connect to your DAW interface balanced line level for wet Left/Right from the H9K.  You should not need anything else in line here unless you have ground loops.  Now you can route your Wet FXchain right into your DAW.  

– use IO 3/4 on the DB25 to be your input and potentially your send.  I would connect these to the SB as a loop, but you could set this up to accept a guitar signal directly.  In any case this is where your guitar and any pedals that want to see a pickup first come into the H9K.  This is usually mono so really only need one of the I/O.  Lets use 3.

– Connect out I/O 3 into your AMP/Pre-AMP.  Here you can do what ever reamping concepts work for you. 

– In a typical wet/dry you don’t really need the amps EFX loop, But if you really want to you could use I/O 4 here. connect AMP send to in 4 and Amp return to out 4.  You might need to move to IO 5/6 depending on -10/+4 setting needs.  At this point, if you are using SBGL you now can put whatever you want from the anolog world in any config you want.  

– In Emote you can now create sessions with different routings of the 4 FX chains that work for you.  For pre amp effects come into an FXChain with anaolg input 3. Now, you can either exit the FXchain analog 3 to Amp input or you can exit via an ADAT out.  If you do the ADAT out you can then receive that signal into any other FXChain and start processing again.  Then you can exit out analog 3 and have 2 FX chains in series in front of your amp.

– The wet portion now depends where you want your wet.  If you want to use the AMP effects loop build a FX.Chain that uses anolg in 4 (or 5/6) and then process.  Now you can either exit anolg out to the AMP return making sure you do what you like with stereo effects into a mono return or you can now use an unused ADAT path to route to your 4th FXChain even in full stereo.  Now you exit the H9K either analog 4 to amp return or you exit full stereo via out 1/2 to your DAW.

Here you have used a max 6 I/O possibly only 4 leaving you 2.  That means you could split to DAW 1/2 and a power amp and cabs on 7/8 for in room/live use.

Note:  I would look into using a load box to get amp dry signal into the wet effects chain for processing.

Anyway, lots of ways to do this I think.  Maybe this can get you closer.

 

 

 

[joecozzi]

J20056 wrote:

@joecozzi: Thanbk you so much for the detaied explanation and diagram. As I see it, the RJM device you use which has 4 balanced loops is akin to aSwitvhBlade. However, you clrarly and carefully use DI and re-amp boxes in your setup, so wondering whether it is necessary because the RJM doesn't have the buffers and high Z that the SBGL has or any other reason?

That is correct. The RJM Effects Gizmo is simply a loop switcher. It doesn't feature the same impedance matching and gain structuring capabilites of the SBGL. It does have a buffered guitar input, however. Plus, I was already familier with thier other MIDI products. I also opted to keep the DI/Reamping separate because I prefer Radial's higher end products. I compated three other DI manufacturers and they offered the best sonic performance. But the Switchblade looks like a great option, too.

[rvickers]

J20056 wrote:

First Happy New Year 2020 to the Eventide family of users! May the tone be with you!

@rvickers:

I did a simple SBGL experiment whereby I plugged the guitar in one input and connected (in SBGL) to an output connected directly top the high Z input of myMarkV guitar amp. This was via unbaanced cable TS-TS. I carefully set a microphone and recorded the noise level of a high gain (IIC+) guitar tone. This way, I can see the level in LogicProX by the height of the signal bar (requires vertical zooming).

I then took the SBGL output and fed it directly into a Radial JCR re-amp box via TRS-XLR balanced into the reamp box, then unbalanced TS-TS into the MarkV high Z input.I recorded the noise level, and compared it in LPX. Surprisingly, it is 100% identical, both as measured in LPX as well as by just (subjectively) listening. I re-read the SBGL manual, and it says that all I/O is buffered, and the impedance is 1 megaOhm. 

So it appears that the SBGL does act as a re-amp box already, and there is no need for one. Furthermore, I was not using any DI for the guitar and plugged it stright into the SBGL.

UNbless I’m missing somehting, it therefore doesn’t appear that there is any need for DI or re-amp when using the SBGL, UNLESS things start to matter when connecting line level devices like the H9000? This is my next step now that the SBGL is back into my rack.

Curious to know what you guys think?

 

@joecozzi: Thanbk you so much for the detaied explanation and diagram. As I see it, the RJM device you use which has 4 balanced loops is akin to aSwitvhBlade. However, you clrarly and carefully use DI and re-amp boxes in your setup, so wondering whether it is necessary because the RJM doesn’t have the buffers and high Z that the SBGL has or any other reason?

 

 

Happy new year!  Cool, love that you did this.  Proves I can trust my ears.  I set based on tone and perceived noise.  You are not missing anything.  I’ll give you my thoughts on the SBGL Vs the RJM.  

I love SBGL for the heavy lifting with anything that is okay with buffered signal. I use RJM products for switching things that don’t like buffers like analog fuzz and treble boosters.  I use an RJM PBC on a board that houses all of those devices and it is controlled by itself or my RJM MMGT.  The PBC has three buffers at different spots in the switcher so you can get creative.  I added a morning star ML5 for a set of fuzzes I would never stack. Hopefully RJM will make a rack version of his latest PBC6X as it has a matrix switcher, although he may have buffered the whole thing I don’t know. 

The other thing I have is a way to completely transformer isolate amp input and the EFX loop connection.  Mario (axxess electronics) and I designed some custom boxes that use high end transformers for this.  If the Radial boxes are still using Jenson then they should be plenty good too.  I read somewhere they stopped for cost reasons a while back, but I don’t know for sure and have not done any testing.  I have Radial stuff and it’s always top quality.  It has been my experience that whenever I start combining multiple amps and efx loops you end up with ground loops no matter what you do.  The ISO boxes solved this for me.  They esentially transformer ISO all e connections to the amp and give me polarity switching on a relay I can midi control.  I still use the RJM PBY in front of those to select or combine amps inputs from one SBGL out.  I have my SBGL maxed so need the extra output.  🙂

Finally, the suposed weakness of the SBGL is the dynamic range for line level devices. We discussed this a bit earlier and RJM does better at this in it’s balanced loops.  I don’t have an issue as I am able to gainstage to what I want to hear.  However, I am not doing full proper wet/dry type setups.  I prefer the interaction of the wet and dry in the same space.  If I want a more hi-fi wet it’s usually only in the studio or I do it in a simple wet/dry amp setup and have not had any trouble.  I suspect I could also make a full wet/dry with stereo amp and spekers work to my satisfaction as well with the SB, but have not tried it.

 

 

[joecozzi]

J20056 wrote:

I can’t wait for the ability to change Scenes via MIDI. Last missing functionality.

If you’re referring to changing Scenes via MIDI on the H9000, that’s already possible. I do it all time with my RJM Mastermind GT16. In the studio, I even change scenes on the H9000 using the MIDI Designer app via an IK Multimedia MIDI mobile interface. It’s very easy.

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