Noisy Vintage Delay

[jzucker]

I love the vintage delay. It sounds so lush and full, more like a tape echo than anything I've heard. Very similar to the fulltone TTE.

 However, it's really hissy. I'm using it in 12 bit mode. Not sure if the noise is part of the vintage algorithm or some type of artifact. Could this be addressed in a future software release?

[IDeangelis]

 12 bit IS hissy! That's an aspect of the vintage digital converters with lower resolution than today. They were….hissy, in those days.

cheers

I 

[jzucker]

So you're saying if I up it to 16 bit the hiss will be reduced too or is the hiss added as part of the algorithm? If the latter, it should be adjustable because it ain't cool but the tone is.

[IDeangelis]

 reducing bit rate = more hiss

if you raise the bit number the hiss will be progressively reduced.

It's part of the algorithm…and part of the concept of using a vintage unit. It sounds hissy.

People pay thousands to get a vintage noisy fx device.

😉

I

[Crysstalized]

It think that it is understood about the relationship of bit rate and noise. However, nobody wants noise, just the tone of the delay. I had a vintage Deluxe Memory Man that I loved the tone of—but I didn't pay "to get a vintage noisy fx device"—I bought it because of the tone of the delays. I know of nobody that wants the noise included in the simulation–same thing with the tape model. We all want the beautiful sounds of the vintage units *without* the downfalls that they had like noise and bad tone robbing bypasses. That is why the boutique market is so successful. They make toneful devices that improve the functionality of the effects we use. I don't want my effects robbing me of musicality because I'm stressing about excess noise and overtones when playing or recording. I believe it is an error in logic to believe that people pay for noisy units. They pay for toneful units. Vintage noise is just plain noise. 🙂

I honestly think that the Vintage Delay sounds are among the best on the TF, but I don't use all that much because of the noise. Check some of the other boards–the number one complaint about the TF is the Tape and Vintage noise. Just some thoughts you guys might want to consider.

[jzucker]

 Someone explain to me why the bitrate of 12 is inherently noisier than 16? The bit rate should be more attributable to dynamic range I would think. *AND* if you are going to have noise, at least gate it somehow. My tonefactor hisses even when I am not playing! I guess it's that 12 bit silence. 

[drfrankencopter]

Decreasing# of bits should not necessarily increase the noise. It will have an affect on the resolution though (and 12 bit is still 70dB resolution, which is pretty good in guitar terms). The noise should only go up if dither has been added to compensate for truncation effects.

I'm really curious about HOW Eventide has implemented this algorithm (it's trade secret I'm sure, but I'm curious nonetheless). When I select 12 bits, do I get 12 bits that are uniformly distributed across the input voltage range range, or do I just get the most significant 12 bits of the Timefactors 24 bit converters? There's a big difference there, for example, if the Timefactor 24 bit A/D input range is from +20dBV to -100 dBV, then if we just get most significant 12 bits, then our range only goes from +20dBV to -50 dBV, throwing away much of the signal, and not making use of the top parts because you'd need to really crank the level going into the timefactor to get the input up there. Most of those old digital delay units had input volume controls to let you drive the A/D converters with good resolution….but we don't have that on the Timefactor, so we don't know hoy many of the upper bits we're throwing away.

I suspect (pure speculation, don't quote me on it) that Eventide is throwing away the least significant bits in their algorithm, and that combined with the fact that the TF input range is set up for some pretty high level signals (Try and see just how much level you need to put in in order to light the clip lamp), results in users not getting 'representative' performance from the vintage delay algorithm.  By 'representative' I mean if you want your box to sound like an old 12 bit korg SDD3000, you'd think that dialing up the 12 bit setting would be correct, but since you don't have input preamp control on the Timefactor it might be more sonically accurate to dial in a 14-16 bit setting.

Maybe one day I'll hook my soundcard up to the timefactor and do some analysis….

Cheers

Kris 

[jzucker]

 Thanks Kris,

That makes sense to me. Sometimes when you ask questions in these forums, folks pipe in with answers that don't make sense. At least yours makes sense. I will try the 14 and 16 bit settings and see if the noise is still there. Of particular interest is the fact that it's noisy with no input signal present… 

[drfrankencopter]

 If it's noisy with no signal present, I assume you're on rev
1.1 of the firmware…I seem to recall it getting quiet with no input
signal with the Beta rev 2.0 version of the software. But, I recall,
getting a 'gating' kind of sound…which I figure is due to a lack of
dither. I figure that Version 1.1 had dither on the signal, which
explains the noise (dither is noise…shaped noise, but noise
nonetheless), but they took it away, or changed the way in which it was
implemented in version 2.0. I'll need to double check this though, as
it's been a while since I've used my TimeFactor (I'm 3/4 of the way
through a pedalboard construction project so most of my pedals are
currently out of service).

I can check it out tomorrow though since I aim to finish my board off tonight… 

Cheers

Kris 

[arcadesonfire]

I agree.

I can't say that "we all" (meaning every musician) wants the timbre of tape and vintage digital delay without the noise, but i'm pretty sure i do. The noise on the vintage delay algorithm's lower bitrates might hold a special place in some folks' hearts and it might not be attainable by other means, but i can't see why anyone would want the hiss on the tape delay. It seems to me that the hiss wouldn't have any purpose on stage but would only be desirable on a recording and 1) the TF is mainly designed, since it's a stompbox, to be a live tool, right? and 2) there are plenty of other ways and plugins to get vintage sounding noise on your recordings.

I hate to annoy Eventide with our desires for the vintage and tape settings (especially when, i think, the looper issue is the biggest fish to fry), but we are saving them money on market research right? 

[Trazan]

 I very much agree; there's no need for extra "hiss" in a live situation, and in the studio there are plenty of ways to add hiss/noise after the fact..if anyone would want that.

I'd love for that tape delay hiss control to rather adjust low rollof/highpass on repeats (or tape saturation if possible).

[jzucker]

 It's worse than just hiss. I discovered this morning that at 14 bits or less in the vintage delay you get a distorted ghostnote sustaining in parallel with anything you are playing.clean, it sounds horrific. This is 100% repeatable. At 16 bits it does not happen.

 Probably a rounding or truncation error or an overflow of some type…

[DGillespie]

Hey Guys,

Is the noise you are getting there all the time, or are you talking about something else. A change was made in the 2.0 beta version to gate the noise/distortion effect to only be present when there is signal coming out of the delays so it's not just sitting there spitting all the time. At the same time we added the ability to turn the effect down to 7 bits which allows you to get into really heinous distortion territory which can be fun but is probably not what everyone wants.

If you are on version 2 and you are still getting the noise while not playing, do me a favor and try turning the bits down to 7 and see if the noise goes away. Let me know one way or the other and we'll try to get this working the way you guys want.

Thanks,
Dan

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