One expression pedal for two units? (on A/B switch)

[cacibi]

To save space on my new pedalboard build, I'm thinking of using one expression pedal for both my Timefactor and Modfactor units, on an A/B switch.  I can't really think of any time when I would want or need expression pedal control over both in the same song (and the obvious physical limitations of one foot needed standing while the other is working the expression pedal 🙂

Anyway – I'm wondering if there are any issues with using an expression pedal like this.

[badmelonfarmer]

Hi cacibi,

I bought a Mission Engineering SP-2 for this very reason.

it has a toe switch like a Wah On/Off that allows you to switch between two "Channels" so you can plug in a PitchFactor and a ModFactor and switch between the two  by pressing down on the toe position.

it also has a LED that changes colour to show you which channel you are using.

Built like a tank too.

Cheers

BMF

[cacibi]

Does it accept a 9v power supply, or is it battery only for the LED indicator power?

[badmelonfarmer]

either, I think.

I am running it of a Power Supply, but I am pretty sure there was a battery clip inside too.

[wedelich]

You can also transmit expression PDL via MIDI from one factor to the next.   With the new OS in Time and Mod factor (version 2.4.2[1]), MIDI has more pep and I find it works well.  This is what I use in my rig.  It saved me space and $$$.  Basically I just use one expression PDL plugged into my Pitchfactor and transmit it over MIDI CC to the other two pedals.  If you want more detailed info on how to do this, let me know.  At the very least, it's simple to do and worth a test before you go out and buy another piece of gear. 

[robgraziano]

wedelich wrote:

You can also transmit expression PDL via MIDI from one factor to the next.   With the new OS in Time and Mod factor (version 2.4.2[1]), MIDI has more pep and I find it works well.  This is what I use in my rig.  It saved me space and $$$.  Basically I just use one expression PDL plugged into my Pitchfactor and transmit it over MIDI CC to the other two pedals.  If you want more detailed info on how to do this, let me know.  At the very least, it’s simple to do and worth a test before you go out and buy another piece of gear. 

[badmelonfarmer]

Hi,

I'd be interested in some more detail and I am sure others would be interested too.

Cheers

BMF

[cacibi]

Yeah – would definitely like to know how the Midi transmit of the expression pedal is setup.  I'm assuming you have enable Midi Thru first, and insure that the transmit and receive Midi channels are the same between the two units.  I think on page 37 of my Timefactor manual it gets into setting this up – but would be great to get your steps.

thanks

[wedelich]

Ok, here goes:

In this first part you need to set up the master device (the factor that the exp pedal is physically plugged into).  This is a bit exhaustive, trust me it's easier than the length of this post makes it look, but I included all the details to avoid any confusion.  Here are the steps: 

1. Enter System mode by holding down the Encoder and the right footswitch.  Make sure you are in the top level of the system mode menu tree.  The options when you turn the encoder should be BYPASS, TUNER, AUX SW, MIDI, GLOBAL, UTILITY

2.  Scroll to MIDI and enter the MIDI menu by pressing the encoder.

3. Scroll to XMT CC and press the encoder to enter this sub-menu.

4.  There will be a display that shows which control is assigned which MIDI CC value.  You can change these two parameters independently and the arrow between them points to which value the encoder will change.  Use the left adn right footswitches to toggle the arrow.  So, with the arrow facing left (towards teh control) scroll until it says PDL.  Now press the right footswitch and assign a CC value to PDL. 

5.  Press the middle footswitch to exit this submenu and go back up to the MIDI menu.

6. Scroll over to CTL XMT and press the encoder to enter.  Turn it on by turning the encoder, the press the middle footswitch to go back up to the MIDI menu.

7.  Scroll over to OUTPUT and press the encoder to enter.  Turn it XMT, then exit by pressing the middle footswitch. 

8.  Exit System Mode by holding the encoder and right footswitch.  The master should be set up to transmit Exp pedal now. 

In this second part you set up the slave device (the factor that recieves exp pedal control via MIDI CC).  Here are the steps:

1.  Enter System Menu like before, then scroll over to MIDI and enter the MIDI menu.

2.  Enter the RCV CH menu and make sure that it says OMNI or matches the master device's XMT CH. Then go back up to the MIDI menu.

3. Scroll over to RCV CTL and enter this submenu.  The works exactly the same as the CTL XMT menu that you set up in the master.  So scroll using the encoder until you see PDL in the left half of the display, then switch the arrow to the right half of the display and use the encoder to assign the same CC value to PDL that you picked for the master.  Exit back into the MIDI menu.

4.  If you have more than one slave device you'll also want to scoll over to OUTPUT and set it to THRU. 

5.  Exit the System Mode. 

Now simply connect the pedals via a standard MIDI cable (out/thru of master, in of slave), and you should be good to go.  Let me know if there are any questions. 

-Russ

[thoward]

I have a similar question with regard to controlling the Time Factor with an expression pedal. I've set all this up and everything works fine. I'm switching patches/presets with a Rocktron Midi Mate and Patch Mate, and using an expression pedal plugged into the Time Factor 1/4" Expression Pedal Input Jack. The Midi Mate controller has an expression pedal input jack as well, and the expression pedal sits right next to it on my pedal board. I would like to clean up my cable runs by plugging the expression pedal into the Midi Mate and sending the expression commands over the midi cable, eliminating the need to run a separate cable all the way back to the rack where the Time Factor is located. If I do this, will I have to reprogram all the parameters controlled by the expression pedal? Or… is there a way to do this without having to reprogram? 

[wedelich]

thoward,

If you are sure that the Rocktron will send the expression pedal over MIDI cc, then you can simply set up your Timefactor as I described in the second section of my previous post.  You will not have to reprogram all the parameters controlled by the expression pedal, as this action only intercepts expression control from the physical jack and diverts it to a MIDI cc.  You'll have to consult the Rocktron manual to set it up on that end though. 

-Russ

[wedelich]

Oh, I forgot to mention, you'll need to update the Timefactor to the newest version to get this functionality (if you haven't already).  Please be sure to back up your presets and settings with FactorLib before you do this.  

[cacibi]

Worked like a charm!  Thanks!

[wedelich]

You're welcome. Have fun!

[jcshirke]

Russ,

My question seems like it might be similar in some respects to thoward's above.

I am putting together a pedal board that will be completely controlled by MIDI. My controller is a Liquid Foot Jr., and I have an expression pedal plugged into one of its exp. input jack. (I posted separate threads about exp. pedal compatibility with Eventide pedals, if you happen to see those.)

On my pedal board, among other things, I have all three Factor pedals. Obviously there's no way I could plug an expression pedal into each one of the Factors, so my hope is that the one exp. pedal plugged into my controller will be able to control them all. To begin to test things, I simplified my rig down to the following, just to experiment:

Boss FV 300L exp. pedal, which is plugged into my MIDI controller via a TRS cable. MIDI out from my controller to MIDI in of my PitchFactor. MIDI receive is set to channel 1 on the PF, and I am sending to the PF on channel one of my controller. I created a preset in my controller that is supposed to send a CC message

I chose the Crystals effect on the PF, and I tried to control the mix level from a min. of zero to a max of 55 with my expression pedal via MIDI CC from my controller. I chose CC 0 as the CC number to assign to Knob O, mix. I set the min and max values as described in the manual.

I also programmed my controller, but something is not quite working. My controller asks me to assign the following info: a "C" (Command), plus a Data 1 value and a Data 2 value. For Command, I selected "B", which, on my MIDI controller, corresponds to "Continuous Control". For Data 1 I entered 000, because I *think* this is where I enter the CC # that I have set in my PitchFactor for the parameter I wish to control. (In other words, since I chose CC 0 on my PF, then Data 1 should also be zero—000). For Data 2, however I do not know what to enter–if anything. Maybe my exp. pedal provides the data for Data 2 when it is depressed? I have asked for support at Liquid Foot on that very question already.

I just want to know if a) I have set things up correctly (as far as you can tell) on the Eventide end of things, and b) whether I should ultimately have success controlling all three Factor pedals via MIDI CC from my MIDI controller. I am able to program my MIDI controller *per preset*, so that, for example, my preset 1 above will send a CC message to control the mix on the  PitchFactor. But I can program another preset that will send a CC message to the ModFactor to control something else entirely–and so forth. I could even send simultaneous CC messages to different Factor pedals in the same preset, should I need to.

Finally, I assume PitchFactor will get the same MIDI updates for optimum functionality that TimeFactor and ModFactor got a few days ago with the new software release?

Many thanks for reading.

Jeff

[jcshirke]

p.s. I forgot to mention in my long reply that my experiment did not work. For some reason, I was not able to control the PF sending MIDI CC messages using my expression pedal plugged into my MIDI controller. I'm not sure yet exactly what I did wrong. That's why I wanted to know whether I did things right on the Eventide end of things. It'll help me pinpoint my problem.

[wedelich]

jcshirke,

Based on what you wrote, I would recommend the following setup:

1) Instead of trying to map CC# values to knob values, program your expression pedal on the Liquid Foot Jr for one specific CC#  and simply make the range go from 0 to 127 (min to max).  Do this for all of your 'Presets' on the Liquid foot Jr. 

2) Follow the steps I outlined in my above post  that detail how to map expression pedal over MIDI to the same CC# on your factor pedal. 

3) Now, using the expression pedal programming in the Factor pedals (see a Factor pedal  manual)  you should be able to map any range of knob values to the heel and toe of the expression pedal (even over MIDI).  This is done on a per Preset basis (as in BANKs).  It's more flexible to keep your expression pedal knob relationship (and factor pedal sounds) settings localized in the unit where they apply.  This way you always send the full range MIDI expression values for everything and rely on the Factor pedal to do what it was intended to do. 

4) I would then use the Liquid foot controller to send MIDI Program change that maps the Liquid foot Presets to the Factor Presets. 

Let me know if you get it going,

Russ

[jcshirke]

A million thanks, Russ. I'll give it a try and let you know the outcome.

Again, thank you very much for the detailed response.

Jeff

[jcshirke]

Russ,

I just thought of two more issues I need to address as I work out the details of setting up my pedalboard.

1. Will the programming method you outlined above for me most likely work with other devices that I also want to have CC over with my exp. pedal? I have a Line 6 M9 in this pedal board also, so if I follow what you outlined above, I would hope that my Liquid Foot presets will then work the same way with my M9. Of course, I can (and will) ask in the Line 6 forum, but I thought you might have some insights.

2. I thought I would need to use a MIDI thru box with this board because I have 5 MIDI devices I will need my controller to communicate with, and that would be too many devices to daisy chain. I thought I would connect each device to one of my MIDI thru box outs (I have a box with 5 MIDI outs). But, I believe your setup above requires that the Eventide boxes be daisy chained. Is that right, or would it be better for me to use my thru box?

Thanks,

Jeff

[wedelich]

Jeff,

1) I glanced at the M9 manual online, and from what I can tell, it does receive Exp Ped. control over MIDI, you just might not be able to pick which channel and which CC goes to what.  But that's ok for the factor pedals b/c you can choose the CC so that they match up with whatever the M9 does.  You'll have to read the M9 manual for yourself, though, and definitely ping their forums.

2) Each of our boxes is also a MIDI transmitter OR a thru box, so they can be daisy-chained or the MIDI inputs can just be plugged into to your thru box.  My setup above isn't exclusvie to them being chained, so I wouldn't say it's required in the least.  I chain them b/c I don't use an external MIDI controller or thru hub.  I just use my PF as the MIDI controller for the MF and TF.  🙂

-Russ

[jcshirke]

Hey Russ,

So–as far as the Factors are concerned–I could use my thru box and still set things up the exact same way you described above? I wouldn't have to change a thing as far as the programming was concerned? The only difference (obviously) would be my physical MIDI cable connections.

Thank you,

Jeff

[wedelich]

Jeff,

Exactly, just set them all up as slaves, and you should be good to go. 

-Russ

[TheDan]

Hey Russ,

works perfectly. Both units (MF/TF) are controlled now with one Ernie Ball Expression Pedal. How cool is that . But  I'm having a problem with my MIdi Controller (G-minor) now . Since I had to change the output on the MF from thru to XMT  I can't change both units with my controller anymore. The banks and the other stuff I programmed works only with the MF now. Is there another way to make both things (Expression/midi control) work?

My setup is

---

G-minor out –>MF in

---

> MF out —>   TF in 

Would be great if you could help me out.

[jcshirke]

Russ,

Is the PitchFactor software already up to date to allow this functionality? It must be, since I believe you said you had all three pedals on your board.

Thanks,

Jeff

[quintessence]

Jeff…. I noticed your posts here and we seem to be trying to do the exact same thing and I have a question for you about the LFjr 

I just replied to your post at the Liquid Foot forum…as well.

Like you, I want to use just one expression pedal to control both of my factors.  Individually, of course.

The expression pedal works perfectly with the factors for me via midi in the LFjr…. so there's no worry there. 

The problem I'm having is with programming the  "expression pedal bypass" feature on the Liquid Foot Jr

I set the LFjr to control the Pitchfactor "globally" and, again, it works perfectly….. but when I try to "bypass" it  for Modfactor control in an individual preset….. it does bypass the pitchfactor control.. but it doesn't activate the Modfactor control in it's stead. 

I've tried to reverse this scheme to see if it was a problem with one particular factor… but it does the exact same thing

Did you manage to get this to work?… and if so…..heh, what did you do? 

Sorry Eventide guys for using your forum to ask a question about someone else's product

Regards,

Jason

[jcshirke]

Hey Jason,

Thanks for posting. I really appreciate it.

Did you follow Russ' instructions for me above?

I am going to be working on my setup today, actually, since I finally have some time. I tried to send you a private message, but it doesn't look like we can do that here. So, here's my email. Drop me a line anytime, so we can take our LF discuss off of Eventide's board. Any posts that have to do with setting up the Factor pedals, though, probably should stay here.

jcshirke@verizon.net

Thanks!

Jeff

[wedelich]

Dan,

If the G-minor has an expression pedal input that can be transmitted over CC, then yes, you can assign it to a MIDI CC and control it from there.  Otherwise, the MF is either a MIDI thru box or a transmitter.  As either, it can receive MIDI commands and respond, but the MIDI transmit functionality either generates new and isolated MIDI commands or passes commands from input, but not both. 

To me though, the G-minor sounds like a redundant piece of gear.  The MF will do everything it does (send program change and MIDI CC) plus expression pedal control.  Is there something in particular you need the G-minor for that you don't think a factor pedal will do?

[TheDan]

I have it laying around from my G-Major days and thought I give it a shot. I use it to go up/down the banks, bypass both units and to control the brake/repeat function. Easy to programm. I didn't go into the MF midi functions as a master pedal but I will work through it. The only thing the MF can't is going down the banks. So I think I will continue without the GM. The expression pedal function with midi is way too cool.

Thanks Russ, maybe you have a few guidelines how to programm it, since you use one to control all three.

I'm going to change my chain. First TF than MF.

[Ihate100bees]

Great! Thanks so much. I couldn't figure out what I was doing incorrectly. Followed your advice and it worked! Very cool! Thanks again!

[wedelich]

Should work the exact same using the H9, in fact, since I wrote that 6 years ago (Eek! Time flies!), I've updated my board to all H9s now, and I'm doing this same thing.  

[13cwc13]

Quite by accident I discovered that one Expression pedal into the H9  also controls the downstream Time Factor…  both in the Fx loop of my Sansamp Ps1. That may be intended to work that way but… I believe I enabled the Kill Dry on both units. I really like it not only for the Fx blending but when I back the Expression pedal completely off all Fx evaporate leaving me with pure unadulterated guitar tone. Perfect for getting behind the singer without messing with the volume. The pedal halfway up provides a taste of both Fx and fattens up the sound, and when totally depressed the sound “Blooms” into total stage presence. As a plus you can preset both MIX controls to dial in the precise wetness of the ratio between the H9 and Time factor. It simply kicks ass!

[13cwc13]

I think what is happening here is that the Sansamp PS1 has a “50/50” switch which sends 50% of the signal to the FX loop and the other 50% straight thru to the power amp. With KILlDRY enabled on both Eventide (H9/TF) the one EX PDL in the H9 controls the “wetness MIX” of both units, whose maximum ratio levels can be set independently in relation to each other. So when the pedal is backed off only the DRY 50% of the signal is heard. Which of course is quite advantagous for dynamics. The more the PDL is depressed the more both FX are introduced up until fully depressed. There the FX are fully expressed. I do not know why the PDL engages both units but the 50/50 switch is a neat addition to the Sansamp.

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