Question about using Eventide TimeFactor’s both inputs, with another delay in front

[danut]

Can anyone share his experience in using a DD-3 or AD-9 in front of the
TimeFactor by sending the dry out and the wet out separately, into the A
and B inputs of the TimeFactor?

I always wanted to able to do the so called "Petrucci 7 ms thickening
trick". Two amps in stereo, right side dry only, left side wet only, a
single repeat with 7 ms delay, for a huge, thickening effect. As soon as
I got the TimeFactor, I tried to do this, because of the two
independent delay lines and because I had two separate amps, but it
seems it can't be done. The Global Mix affects both sides at once and I
can't eliminate the dry sound from one side only. Besides, I'd lose the
setting as soon as I'd change the preset or turn the TF off.

So, the next logical thought was to have the dry/out separation
happening prior of the TimeFactor and take advantage of its discrete
stereo inputs. I would run a good quality, no frills delay in front of
the TF, with dry/wet separation, delay level to match dry sound, one
single repet and delay time at minimum (20 ms on the Keeley/Maxon AD-9
or 12.5 ms on the Boss DD-3). Then input these to the TimeFactor, and
use it's discrete stereo configuration, then out to two separate amps.
This way, the thickening trick would actually be independent of the
TimeFactor, be it on or off or on whatever preset, but carried on fully
and nice.

My only concern, and the reason I asked for other people's experience is
does this work as well in real life as on the paper, lol…?! (I just
don't have another delay to experiment…)

Thanks!

[timothyhill]

Try putting the "thickening" delay after everything else, as the last pedal in the chain. That way, the delay will always be present regardless of whatever other effects you have on or off. If you put it first, the thickening delay will be subject to modification by any effect that comes after it.

I'd also recommend using a digital delay so the sound of the wet-only side isn't too different from the dry-only side. Also, a DDL will allow you to get shorter delay times. If the delay between sides is too long, it starts sounding like an echo, not just bigger.

And yeah, this trick works… it's been around for quite some time, probably as long as delay-lines have been. I wouldn't use it all the time, not really my style, but it's good to make a part stand out or for a Randy Rhoads kind of sound.

[danut]

Thanks for your reply!

Well, the thickening delay only has one input, so it can't be used after the TimeFactor in a stereo configuration. But, since the TF will be the last in my chain, the thickening delay will be right in front of it and the TF will be off (in relay mode) when I will most need thickening, so I think it would all be ok.

Regarding the delay time, do you think 20 ms is too much for what I'm looking for? (thickening vs. reverby ambience). I know a DDL would go under 20 ms, but I so want to use a good quality, warm but clear analog delay!…

Thanks again!

[timothyhill]

Yeah, if the thickening delay has only one input and you want to use the TF in stereo, you'll need to put it before the TF. Just be aware that the repeats the TF adds, when the TF is active, may lessen the thickening effect, depending on the settings and what TF effect you're using.

According to the Haas effect (theory of sound localisation), more than 50ms and it starts sounding like an echo. Personally, I find anything more than 30ms to be too much, but your ears may tell you something different. I think 20ms should work for what you want, but you'll have more control and more choices with something that can go shorter. There are some really colorful sounds between 1ms-15ms or so.

I definitely understand your desire to use an analog delay here, and you may like what it does to your sound. Since one side's completely wet and the other is completely dry, the difference in the two will be much more noticable using an ADL instead of a DDL. An ADL's dry side may be noticably brighter than the wet side, and because changes in tone can be mistaken for changes in volume, this may shift the stereo balance when turning the thickening delay on or off. A DDL will be able to reproduce the wet side in a more identical fashion.

I think my best advice would be to try both a DDL and an ADL and go with the one that sounds the best to you in this application. The most important thing is that it sounds good to you.

[rabiddiabetic13]

Tim,

I am curious why these settings did not work for what danut is looking for.  I am trying to understand this 7ms delay trick , what is missing with these settings

mix  – 100%

Dly Mix – A -10 B-10

Dly Time A – 7ms to 25ms

Dly Time B – 0

Feedback A – 1 repeat or to taste

Feedback B – 0

here is original thread on this topic.

http://forum.eventide.com/cs/forums/p/6654/29282.aspx#29282

Thanks,

Anthony

[danut]

It didn't work, indeed… A serious thinning / loss in volume occured, I don't know why, maybe it was a phase related issue? I' d love some people from Eventide to chime in with an explanation.

However, this is only a surrogate solution, since no real dry sound is being used, only digital duplicates for both sides, right?

[rabiddiabetic13]

danut:

A serious thinning / loss in volume occured

After listineing again switching between active and bypass thinning is a good description.

danut:

since no real dry sound is being used, only digital duplicates for both sides, right?

I never thought of it that way , good point.  If that is true I wonder if the could make one more choice on delay time below 0ms, like DRY that would take the signal from input  1 and just pass it along to output 1 unaffected ?

[danut]

rabiddiabetic13:

 If that is true I wonder if the could make one more choice on delay time below 0ms, like DRY that would take the signal from input  1 and just pass it along to output 1 unaffected ?

That or the ability to set the global mix individually for delay A and B. Maybe a proposal for V4? Eventide people, anyone?!

Anyway, I gave up the idea of doing the thickening trick with the TimeFactor itself…That would be just one preset. I'm rather seriously toying with the idea of doing the thickening prior and independently of the TimeFactor, as described in my previous posts… I just don't have the delay pedals to experiment 🙁

[timothyhill]

Anthony's got a point, there's phase cancellation going on there. That can be a good thing or a bad thing… it's what gives the stereo image it's width, but it can also cause a volume drop.

I think part of what's going on in the TF is due to crossfading the repeats. When the mix is 100%, it's still the first repeat that's coming out, even if the delay is set to 0ms, and even though DelayA stays on one side and DelayB on the other, I think there's still some internal crossfading going on. All digital processing takes some time (at least 1 CPU cycle), so that delay is added as well and is short so, it usually does cause phase cancellation, too.

I also think this is part of the reason Eventide added an output level adjustment to all the pedals in V3. Even though the most apparent victim of volume loss was the rotary setting on the MF, I've noticed a lot of delay settings on the TF that suffer, too, albeit to a lessor degree. Over lunch, I went back and tried this setting out (100% wet, 7ms DelayA, 0ms DelayB) and it wasn't as bad as I'd remembered it, but I'm using V3. I do remember having problems with similar settings under V2.4.

Had an idea for another way to hook this up that would allow the thickening delay to be used last in the chain and still retain stereo effects from the TF…

guitar >> TF Out1 >> amp1

……. >> TF Out2 >> thickener >> amp2

That way, you wouldn't have to worry about whether the thickening delay had stereo outputs, just set the thickening delay to 100% wet… no potential crossfading issues and no internal phase cancellation.

I've tried this with a Boss DD-3, DD-5, DM-3, and an EH DMM. I didn't like what the DMM did in this context, but the others worked well. I liked the DD-3 the best, it doesn't seem as cold as most DDLs. I liked the DM-3, too, but it changed the sound too much for my tastes on the 100% wet side.

Danut, I hope you can find a store that will let you bring in your TF (if they don't have one), maybe your amps, too, and let you experiment with the delays they have there. I know doing that in a big chain store is a real pain, but hopefully there's still a smaller local store near you that will.

[danut]

Today, I had the chance to give the Boss DD-7 a try.

I was skeptical at first, not knowing if its input would have enough headroom to accomodate the hot signal from my Bad Cat tube preamp… After a frustrating half an hour trying to cram the pedal  among the others on my busy Pedaltrain,  BANG!, it happened: I succeeded in getting what I was looking for, in a very simple and effective way: dry sound to the left, wet sound to the right, delay level at maximum, matching the dry sound (and not at 3 o'clock as per BOSS's instructions, which was kinda weird to notice), feedback at minimum (single repeat), delay mode set at 50ms and delay time at minimum (1-2ms). Exceptionally clean and effective thickening! On the DD-7, the travel of the delay time knob covers a span of 50ms, yet I don't know if it's done in a linear way (i.e. when the knob is at noon the delay time is what, half of the maximum, 25ms, or not?) So I used precaution and kept it at minimum (probably 1-2ms) but it was enough for the thickening effect to happen.

Having the two sides off-set only by such a small amount of time (1 or 2 milliseconds)  should also be beneficent, I assume, for the TimeFactor's stereo effect lines, keeping any mess away. 

For the record, I also tried the DD-7 in analog mode (where the minimum delay time is 20ms), but the wet side was too dark and the 20ms delay time was more towards an ambience/roomy effect than to pure thickening. This trial convinced me that an analog delay is not suited for the double tracking trick, at least the way I like the tones to be balanced.

I'm done with this, I'm going now to place an order for a DD-7 🙂

Thanks everyone who chimed in sharing their experience!

[jweingarden]

Hey, I like you idea of using a thickening delay on one side of the stereo signal. I have been considering doing the same thing in my rig, but I know some pedals (especially time effect pedals to my knowledge) switch the phase nearly 180 degrees, which could result in noise cancelation. I was going to try using the DD-3 on one side of my stereo signal (after chorus), then a DD-6 after the DD-3 for longer delays (I don't want to use the DD-3 after the DD-6 because it would then put a short delay on my long delay). I do not know if the DD-3 would switch the phase, but that would be problematic – do you have any idea if it would do that?

Also, it is important to note that I think you must stick a plug in the direct out on the DD-3 to get effect only in order to use it as a thickener, otherwise it is a wet signal (both the direct and effect). 

Thanks,
Jon 

[jbdarrow]

i noticed with 2 delays u can get some cancellation(phase cancellation) thinning is what it sounds like…a few delays settings they have are louder..bassier which puzzled me. so i tried an experiment.

set one delay to reg settings….and second delay to 0 ms 0 fb  and set your mix to favor the non delay side….u get a boost /thickening to the delay….i use mix at 6 delay :10 non-delay side….sounds much fatter. anywhere from 8-4 for the delay side works for mix values. u do not need stereo out for this…but u could…. the problem is with a mono setup where the phase cancellation happens at the mixer output. nature of the beast…this has the effect of sounding like a good parallel effects loop instead of series one.

hope that helps.

[danut]

Here is an extensive list of pedals that invert phase (BOSS DD-x delays are not on this list):

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=796444&highlight=phase+invertion

Regards,

Danut

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