Timefactor Octaver in Effects loop

[fkalich]

Mine does not work.  I have not used the effects loop up to tonight for my Eventides.  I did not notice any glaring issues with the other two pedals, or other effect using the Timefactor.  However the Octaver really does not work.  I set the toggles to line, that did not help.  I can hear it grab the Octave a bit, but it won't hold onto it.  Is this a known issue, or my issue.  I guess it could be fairly unique to the amp I am using, but as I said, all other effect on the three pedals seem fine at first glance, and certainly nothing glaringly wrong with any other effect but the Octaver when using the effects loop.

Frank

[timothyhill]

Yeah, I've never been too pleased with the results I've gotten from the Octaver. I'm going to guess you're talking about the PitchFactor, since the TimeFactor doesn't have an Octaver effect… 😉 I've heard it do some great things to a bass, but from a guitarist's point of view, not really.

I've had much better success using the H910/H949 effect… Mix = 35, Pitch Mix = A10+B7, Pitch A = 0.5, Pitch B = 0.993, Delay A = 0, Delay B = 0, Depth = Modern, Speed = Normal, Xnob = 0, Ynob = 0.

[ameyrairikar]

Is this the octaver from the pitchfactor ?

[caveman]

It has worked great for me in the effects loop.. I'm guessing it might be a level problem.

[fkalich]

Yes, I meant Pitchfactor.   I think it is a nice effect outside the effects loop, very usable when the Pitchfactor is in the chain leading to the Amp input.  But the Octaver does not work for me inside the effects loop.  I have tried it using two different Amps; both are Carvin of different model.  It just does not track the lower octaves when in my effects loop, they vanish, or come and go.  The performance is horrible in my Carvin Vai Legend,  better but still very bad in my Carvin Belair.  Particularly on the unwound strings.  I get only occasional come and go tracking of lower octaves using the Legend, and only on the wound strings.

 Curiously enough, the Diatonic effect tracks the lower Octaves just fine in the effects loop.  And other than the Octaver, all effects on all three pedals seem fine in the effects loop.  I was hoping that the upgrade would address this; I loaded that today, no change occurred, I tried twisting the parameters to see if I could affect the performance, but to no avail.

[timothyhill]

Yeah, the octaver from the PitchFactor… Unless I'm missing something, the both the TimeFactor and the ModFactor don't have octaver effects, only the PitchFactor.

The settings I suggested as a starting point are meant for the PitchFactor.

[timothyhill]

Fkalich, yeah, that happens for me, too. It sounds as if the amp is acting like a hi-pass filter and the octaver is producing sounds like it can't reproduce. Around the A, maybe the G on the E-string, it's moving some serious air, but just drops out any lower than that. I think the octaver is adding a note 2-oct down, where the note I use with the diatonic or chromatic is 1-oct down, which would explain some of this behavior… the fundamental 2-oct down from the low-E in standard tuning (a440) is 20.6Hz. Not many systems can reproduce that… and the PF may be filtering it out to prevent us from accidentally blowing up our amps.

Glad you can get some good sounds with it in front of the amp… I've never had any luck there, either. It's not that the ocatver is a bad effect, just not quite my taste. I prefer the H910 for sub-octaves, but that's just me. What settings are you using in front of the amp?

[fkalich]

Thanks for checking that out.  I did a lot of experimentation, looked in a lot of places, talked to Carvin and to Eventide as well.  Your answer explains the phenomena that I have witnessed, I have seen nothing that contradicts your explanation.   In fact on further evaluation  I found similar issues using the diatonic with lower octaves in the loop as well.  Oh well, it will stay outside the loop, life goes on.

I feel it is a nice effect provided you limit yourself to single notes and no more than simple major 4th or 5th chords. I am not sure that I can't get as good or a better sound just using the diatonic though.  Neoclassical primarily on wound strings for example (so long as you don't sweep) can be nice with it. Also slow lyrical Vai-like playing primarily on unwound strings.  I can set all the knobs to 12 o'clock, except for the bottom rightmost two, set to 10:30.   I need to precede this with some overdrive/distortion, not boosted though.  And follow it up with some echo maybe, or maybe flanging.  But I would not say this effect is for everybody, certainly not for SRV!    Thanks for you solution!

[fkalich]

Further Adventures in Pitchfactor in loop:  And not a happy story.  I thought perhaps the fact that the Octaver is a gain effect might also be an issue, I know that putting gain effects in the effects loop is generally not advised.  So I tried it again with the gain of the effect (bottom knob, second from right) turned  full off.  That did not help.  I then thought to listen to the Diatonic using the loop, and really it did not sound right to me, sort of distorted, just not right.  Then I noticed some crackles from my amp.  I thought maybe the cables were bad and tried to figure it out.  The crackles got worse, this went on for 10 minutes.  I then looked in the back of the amp.  One of my tubes was badly red plating.  Meaning now I have to buy a new set of 4 tubes, they are fried.  A coincidence?  Nearly new tubes, but I did not jump to conclusions.  So I hooked the Pitchfactor  up to my other Amp's effects loop (also a Carvin).  I had the same poor performance,  and then I heard a few crackles.  I unhooked that Pitchfactor immediately, and fortunately none of the tubes had started to red plate.  I now am running it outside the effects loop, it will never go back in there, I have learned my lesson.  As the Pitchfactor works just fine outside the loop, this is one of those things that I think I am going to have a hard time convincing anyone of this being an issue.  I don't jump to conclusions, but when that second Amp crackled, and it had never done that before, well I think it is a reasonable conclusion that something is going on here.  Eventide?

[timothyhill]

You're welcome… glad I was able to help out! I tried out your settings, too, and honestly, that's a better sound than I've been able to coax out of the octaver. So, thank you for helping me find a new sound! I agree, too, that the diatonic shifter does a good job, as does the H910.

You're right, it's not a sound I would've associated with SRV, but I've always loved what Blackmore did with it in Difficult to Cure, among others, and Page, too. I think they both used the MXR Blue Box. I like using an octaver with heavy single-note riffs and power chords, too, along the lines of Kiss' Gos of Thunder. Not something I'd use all the time, but definitely a cool effect!

[DGillespie]

Hi fkalich,

It sound like you may have been having a level and/or impedance issue with the PF in the loop.  We haven't tested with Carvin amps, but the amps we have tested with have a pretty large range of levels in the loop.  In fact, several amps tend to have lower levels in the loop than you'll get out of a medium to hot pickup.  It's also true that the octaver effect locks in to the fundamental frequency of what you're playing and if you're playing through a bright amp or just have the lows turned down the octaver might not have enough low end to lock on to the fundamental of a low E.  The other possible issue is if you have a high gain distorted signal into the octaver effect as that can hide the fundamental.  While most of the shifters in the PF probably sound better after distortion (though they can usually go pre for a different sound) the octaver probably wants to be before the amp.

[fkalich]

Thanks.  I pretty much decided to run it in front, for one thing, I am really liking the effects using stereo with two amps.   My concern now is what caused that Amplifier tube to "red plate".  That could have been due to some other factor, and was just coincidental.  However that Amp never malfunctioned again after removing the Pitchfactor from the effects loop, and as I mentioned when I tried it with another Carvin amplifier, I heard crackles (which occurs before a tube starts to red plate).  But I can't say definitively if the Pitchfactor was the casual factor.  At some point, certainly while still in warranty, I will test this again and see if the phenomena repeats.  If so I will get back to you.

[timothyhill]

Generally, when a tube red-plates, it's due to the signal, bias, or plate voltage becoming too high. This causes the tube to dissipate more power than it can handle causing the tempurature increase, hence the red plate. This can be caused by a bad tube, bad transformer, faulty solder joints, faulty capacitor(s) and/or resistor(s), or higher signal levels than for which the circuit was designed.

Which tube is red-plating? Is it a 12AX7 or is it one of the power tubes (EL34 or 6L6)? While two amps experiencing the same failure at the same time is unusual, it's not impossible.

Since you've said that the amps doesn't do this with any other pedal, or other effects with the PF (just the octaver), I'm wondering if the octaver is producing a whole bunch of frequencies that the amp can't reproduce, which is causing the over-dissipation.

If you have a scope, you could check this directly. If you don't, some DAW software that contains a frequency analyzer could give you the same answer (you'd have to plug the PF into your computer). This could help determine whether the problem is in the pedal or in the amp.

This could also be caused by a physical defect in the effects loop or bias control section (your amp has selectable EL34/6L6 bias and a half-power switch, doesn't it?). It could be that there's a physical defect in the pedal, too, or maybe the interconnection cables. My first guess would be one of the PCBs in the amp, though. My first instinct is that the problem's always there, but doesn't cause the red-plating issue until it's hit with the lower frequencies coming from the octaver.

Have you ever plugged a bass or other low frequency source into your amps' effects return? That might be a way to test the above theory. If this is the case, it could be improved with the addition of a high-pass filter to the effects loop (the schematics I've seen for your Carvin Vai Legacy don't contain one, that's not too unusual though).

In any case, what you're describing is not normal behavior (as if I have to tell you that) and it sounds like, at least to me, that there's a physical defect in your specific amp or pedal which might be better diagnosed by a qualified tech.

I'm sure you know this, but I'd be remiss if I didn't include a disclaimer that poking around inside a tube amp can KILL you, no joke, or seriously injure you. So, unless you're qualified or have a death wish, it's definitely a job for a professional.

[fkalich]

Great info, thanks for your effort.  The pedal has not caused this problem outside the loop, so  am not in a big hurry, I have about 9 months of warranty on the PF, none on the Amplifiers.  Hopefully it was a bad cable, that and the PF  were the common elements between the two amps.  When I do test it again, your response will help me focus in on the causal element as best I can, which will be very helpful in determining what steps I would take should the problem manifests itself again.

Frank

[timothyhill]

I just hope you can figure it out eventually. It's encouraging to know that the TF does work in front of the amp. Since the inter-stage connections in tube amps are usually, in essence, hi-pass filters, if there was a problem with lower-than-designed frequencies coming out of the TF, it would mask it, but… at least it's working and sounding good.

If/when you get around to testing this again, please either post or PM me if there's anything I can do to help, ok? I'd be more than happy to lend any assistance I can.

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