Van Halen-First Album Reverb

[garbeaj]

Does anyone have any presets and/or settings for the H9 that can achieve a convincing Reverb sound from the first Van Halen album?

I’ve been toying around with the “GuitPlate” preset and getting some nice sounds, but I was just wondering if anyone had any settings to share…any help is much appreciated!

[brock]

The Plate algorithm might be a good starting point, but it’s a little too metallic / artificial for my tastes (in this application).  I recall reading that Sunset Sound’s Studio 1 live chamber was key.  So a bright response, non-parallel walls, lots of early reflections …  I’d go with a larger Room, or small Hall, as a base algorithm.

Most H9 / Space reverbs have some form of control over EQ control, so you’re not limited to any particular algo. Select the one that features the adjustments that you’re after.  I like to play around with the early & late reflections in the Room algorithm, and take advantage of the programmed ‘realism’.

The Hall algorithm uses a different paradigm, but it can be tweaked for a similar result.  Just remember that the major parameters [SIZE, DECAY, etc.] are all highly interactive with each other.

You’ll still have to pan it  to the opposite side, adjust the MIX levels, achieve a “brown sound”, etc.  BTW:  the Sculpt algorithm is quite capable of recreating some of these classic rock guitar tones.

[garbeaj]

Thanks very much for those settings…I’ll definitely try them. I have an H9 Core so I’ll probably have to buy some more algos from the Space in order to try these.

I’m a totally ignorant newbie when it comes to pedals in general much less the Eventide products and wet-dry or wet-dry-wet setups. I have a ’65 Fender Super Reverb that I’m trying to figure out how to use for a wet signal and my main sound comes from a 2×12 Marshall with a PPIMV Mod 5 modification done by the late Mark “Rockstah” Abrahamian. I also have a David Bray Line-Out box which lets me run a line level signal to another amp. I’m thinking I could run my H9 between the Bray Line-Out box and the Super Reverb to use it as a wet amp.

Thanks very much again for these settings…I’ll see if I can get them going and get a wet-dry thing going. I know it is really impossible to match the Sunset Sound stereo reverb, but I’ll give it a shot! I’m also using a short slap-back from an MXR Echoplex delay in front of the amp and I know that is a big part of the delay/reverb heard on the album.

Chasing these sounds is a fool’s errand, but here I go anyway!

[brock]

You don’t necessarily have to grab more algorithms right away.  It’s nice to have those options, but you might be able to cover it with what you have.  In a live context, and with guitar amps, some of those nuances between algorithms will get buried.  You can preview the ones that really interest you (5 min. / day), and determine what your ‘must-have’ algos are over time.

You can split the Wet / Dry in the H9 Core itself (newest firmware), if you’re running in mono.  In the preset below, I have Left / Channel 1 running wet (your Fender), and the Right / Channel 2 set to dry (the Marshall). There’s a section in the updated online manual on how to do this, and more information in the H9 Control app [Pedal -> General Settings -> Routing].  No need for another device.

If you like the EchoPlex inline with your wet amp, then turn the PRE DELAY settings in my presets from 100 ms. to 0 ms.  I was building that slap delay into the presets themselves.  Of course, if you have a better spot for the MXR, a PRE DELAY parameter is built-in to most H9 reverb algorithms.

So, you mentioned a factory “GuitPlate” preset.  Can I assume that you’ve added the Plate algo to your H9 Core? I didn’t reference that particular preset here.  I did more of an A-B test with my Room and Hall presets above, and tuned in a similar Plate preset by ear.  It might need some work, but it’ll give you a starting point.  The key is to disguise some of the very things that make it a Plate emulation.

While we’re on the subject of Van Halen, there’s a very powerful algorithm that comes with every H9 Core: H910 / H949.  Here’s a recent thread with settings for EVH-type spread detuning.  I can tell you that similar presets sound great in a two-amp / stereo setup.

https://www.eventideaudio.com/comment/28731#comment-28731

[garbeaj]

Thanks very much for those settings again…and I went ahead and bought the ‘Room’ algo today. I noticed that I had to turn off the pre-delay on the H9 as you said with my MXR Echoplex! Having the Echoplex in front of the amp is extremely important…I’ll try going through the manual and set up my H9 to run a wet signal to my Super Reverb using the settings you just sent. I think having at least a wet-dry setup is key to making this work halfway convincingly…you can do it in one amp, but you have to dial the Mix way back. The reverb overwhelms at a higher mix level and it gets lost at a lower mix. I’m hoping having a seperate amp will help to emulate the post production stereo reverb going while letting the core dry tone still shine through along with the echo from the MXR Echoplex in front of the Marshall.

Really cool stuff to try! I really appreciate the help…this technology overwhelms me and I have found it tough to make it useable, but with your help I feel like I’m gaining ground!

Here is a pic of what I’m using at the moment for this setup:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/924/RDiCSM.jpg
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/922/bYwOrr.jpg

[garbeaj]

Another question…should I put the H9 first (from the guitar to the H9) in my signal chain and split the wet-dry from there? I would think that I wouldn’t want to add the sound of the other effects…I’m trying to get a reverb sound that has no other effects in that mix.

[garbeaj]

Hmm…I tried the wet/dry setting and it sounds weird. It sounds as if I’ve got a rockabilly telecaster playing in the wet amp (Super Reverb)…not at all what I was going for, which is an overall reverb on the whole sound. Which is why the recording added reverb in post production I guess…

How can I get a reverb only sound instead of a whole clean guitar sound with reverb going on the wet amp…if any of what I’m saying makes sense?

[garbeaj]

Maybe I’m not articulating this well…

How can I get “reverb only” out of my wet amp? That is to say reverb with no original guitar sound? I have changed the settings to wet-dry and I have the wet output going to my wet amp (Super Reverb) but I still get the clean original guitar signal going into the wet amp along with the reverb…in other words I sound like Luther Perkins in Johnny Cash’s ‘Tennessee Three’ band out of my Super Reverb and Van Halen out of my Marshall. Not a good thing.

[brock]

I can think of a half-dozen things that it might be, but let’s start with the simplest one first.  It sounds like you have the Routing thing down: Global setup first. Then the Wet / Dry options become available (per-preset) under the H9 Control “More” dropdown.  If – for example – you’re using my Room preset above, I posted that before we started discussing a Wet / Dry routing.  Try this one instead:

This is what I meant by “You’ll still have to … adjust the MIX levels …”  I have MIX pegged at 100% here.  If you have a decent amount of delay time on the Echoplex, you should get a nice ‘bounce’ from right to left [Marshall to Fender / Dry to Wet].  -Or-  H9’s PRE DELAY parameter can also get you that “Whole Lotta’ Love” spatial effect.

You can adjust the wet signal / dry signal balance on the two amps themselves, or with the Output Level control in the H9.  I boosted this reverb-only preset here by 6 dB, as an example.  Use the H9 Control Input Gain and Level Meters.  They help out a lot in gain-staging effects.  Note that this screenshot has the expression pedal mapping at the Toe position; in case you’re wondering why the REFLECTION parameter shows a different value.

If it’s not preset MIX position, then there are a few other options to consider.  I did program these presets to be rather bright & bouncy.  Perhaps a bit too much.   I understand that Sunset Sound was a converted mechanic’s garage, and the upstairs reverb chamber was imperfect enough to sound just perfect.

[garbeaj]

Thanks for bearing with me! I’m so totally ignorant and I know I’m missing so many fundamental concepts here that it is maddening!

So because I now have the wet-dry thing going and I’m taking the wet output to my Super Reverb, I thought that the wet signal (i.e. only the sound of the reverb) would be all that would come out.

So as I understand it now, I need to turn the Mix to 100% in order to get the “reverb only” sound that I’m looking for…am I on the right track now?

[garbeaj]

Also, the slap back echo from the Dunlop/MXR Echoplex should bounce from the Marshall to the Fender? Wow!

[garbeaj]

Just to be clear, my Echoplex and a second delay (a late 70s Electro-Harmonix Deluxe Memory Man), are in my signal chain. The Memory Man is used only for the oscillating dive at the end of “Eruption” in place of my Univox EC-80 A Echo Chamber which is in repair at the moment.

I want only the reverb going to the wet amp, not the delay from the Echoplex. The delay from the Echoplex should go to the Marshall only as far as I can tell.

In other words, it seems like if I’m trying to capture the studio sound then the Echoplex delay should be into the Marshall and the reverb should be into the wet amp?

If the Echoplex was on the original guitar track and then the reverb was applied to the entire track afterwards, does my idea of having only reverb in the wet amp with my Echoplex delay going to my Marshall make sense? Or am I way off base?

[brock]

As far as I know, Sunset took the entire track, pumped it out an Altec A7, through the reverb chamber / room to the far mics, and recorded it back.  So, your Phase 90, M-117, etc. would add to the ‘smear’ in a reverb.  The Echoplex … I thought you were using it only as a pre-delay for the reverb.  So, everything going to the Fender [the wet path] would be 100% wet.  But – as an integral part of the sound – it should be at least on the dry path [Marshall], or both paths.  Then use a little PRE DELAY on the H9 Room as ‘separation’ for the wet reverb.

In a wet / dry setup, the H9’s MIX acts like a volume / level control for just the processed sound.  You can adjust it downward from 100%, or leave it there, and adjust the amp volume of the Fender.  With the MIX at 0%, you won’t get anything to the Fender.  Check this out in H9 Control’s Output Meters.

Yes, there’s something to be said for post-processing.  Or amplifier effect loops – after the preamp.  The tough part about splitting upstream is that you’re after a dimed Marshall sound, but none of that is making it over to the reverb.  If your drive characteristic is pedal-based, it’s less of an issue. That’s the direction I go, with a FRFR system, or two matched guitar amps.  Neither approach is essential ..  you can work around the amp differences with some tweaks to your wet / dry balances.

Where you place the H9 as a ‘splitter’ is going to be personal preference.  Split before all integral FX = a ‘drier’ & cleaner room sound.  Split after all of your FX = a more diffuse, and ‘messier’  room sound.

 

[garbeaj]

Ok…so I’ve tried the 100% wet setting. I’m still having the same problem. The clean original guitar sound comes out in the wet amplifier, the Super Reverb. Again, the dead clean country/funk original guitar sound comes out of the Super Reverb along with the reverb sound of the H9. I can’t seem to eliminate the clean original guitar sound. I thought turning the mix to 100% wet would get rid of the original clean guitar sound, but it doesn’t. Any ideas?

[garbeaj]

Call me crazy…but I would think that 100% wet would mean that NO original guitar sound would come out of the all wet output-ONLY reverb or delay or effect of some sort, NOT any original guitar sound. Isn’t this the whole purpose of having a wet output?!

[brock]

Let’s go back to square one, and make sure that you’re configured correctly.

• Are you seeing WET 1 DRY 2 in the preset’s upper right corner (like the Sunset VH1 Plate image – Post #4)?
• Have you saved the preset after configuring the Wet / Dry routing (admittedly, a long shot diagnostic)?
• Are you seeing anything in the upper-right corner of the preset (“WET 1 DRY 2”; “WET 2 DRY 1”; or “STEREO”)?

To review the process step-by-step, first there’s a global setting – enabling the function across the H9 pedal itself.

• In the H9 Control app:  PEDAL -> GENERAL SETTINGS -> ROUTING -> WET / DRY
• — OR —
• On the H9 Core itself:  Press big encoder + right footswitch -> UTILS ->  ROUTE -> WET.DRY 

Then configure the preset:

• In the H9 Control app:  Upper-right MORE dropdown -> Routing – then select “Wet 2 Dry 1”, “WET 1 Dry 2”, or “STEREO”
• — OR —
• On the H9 Core itself:  Press & hold left footswitch -> click big encoder to ROUTE -> turn to “WET 1”, “WET 2”, or “STEREO”

Overwrite the preset, or create different iterations of presets after every major change.  Let me know if we’re getting any closer.  This should be working like you expect it to – completely separate wet and dry signals.

[garbeaj]

Yep, I’m on the Wet 1/Dry 2 setting…

I always have a guitar sound no matter what I do. I’ve tried “Kill Dry”, “Global”, etc. and I still always have the clean fundamental guitar in the Wet channel. I’ve never been able to get the reverb by itself without the clean original guitar sound in it. The guitar sound gets REALLY loud when I pick harder too.

Am I correct in assuming that the Wet signal SHOULD have nothing but reverb and NO original guitar sound in the Wet signal AT ALL?

It just seems like Wet should have the effect only and the Dry should be the guitar sound.

[floresp640]

garbeaj wrote:

Yep, I’m on the Wet 1/Dry 2 setting… I always have a guitar sound no matter what I do. I’ve tried “Kill Dry”, “Global”, etc. and I still always have the clean fundamental guitar in the Wet channel. I’ve never been able to get the reverb by itself without the clean original guitar sound in it. The guitar sound gets REALLY loud when I pick harder too. Am I correct in assuming that the Wet signal SHOULD have nothing but reverb and NO original guitar sound in the Wet signal AT ALL? It just seems like Wet should have the effect only and the Dry should be the guitar sound.

Hey! When the pedal is in Wet Dry, it is natural to have some dry attack still left. This should be more present if you adjust the predelay where the whole signal should be delayed. So unless its configured in the algorithm, you should still have a very small amount of the dry attack left. 

[garbeaj]

floresp640 wrote:

garbeaj wrote:

Yep, I’m on the Wet 1/Dry 2 setting… I always have a guitar sound no matter what I do. I’ve tried “Kill Dry”, “Global”, etc. and I still always have the clean fundamental guitar in the Wet channel. I’ve never been able to get the reverb by itself without the clean original guitar sound in it. The guitar sound gets REALLY loud when I pick harder too. Am I correct in assuming that the Wet signal SHOULD have nothing but reverb and NO original guitar sound in the Wet signal AT ALL? It just seems like Wet should have the effect only and the Dry should be the guitar sound.

Hey! When the pedal is in Wet Dry, it is natural to have some dry attack still left. This should be more present if you adjust the predelay where the whole signal should be delayed. So unless its configured in the algorithm, you should still have a very small amount of the dry attack left. 

I’ve tried it with some pre-delay and with no pre-delay. The original dry signal is coming with the reverb and it is LOUD! It shouldn’t be there AT ALL as far as I understand…otherwise, what would be the purpose for having a 100% wet setting and a dedicated wet output? Maybe I just fundamentally don’t understand how wet signals work?

[floresp640]

garbeaj wrote:

floresp640 wrote:

garbeaj wrote:

Yep, I'm on the Wet 1/Dry 2 setting… I always have a guitar sound no matter what I do. I've tried "Kill Dry", "Global", etc. and I still always have the clean fundamental guitar in the Wet channel. I've never been able to get the reverb by itself without the clean original guitar sound in it. The guitar sound gets REALLY loud when I pick harder too. Am I correct in assuming that the Wet signal SHOULD have nothing but reverb and NO original guitar sound in the Wet signal AT ALL? It just seems like Wet should have the effect only and the Dry should be the guitar sound.

Hey! When the pedal is in Wet Dry, it is natural to have some dry attack still left. This should be more present if you adjust the predelay where the whole signal should be delayed. So unless its configured in the algorithm, you should still have a very small amount of the dry attack left. 

I've tried it with some pre-delay and with no pre-delay. The original dry signal is coming with the reverb and it is LOUD! It shouldn't be there AT ALL as far as I understand…otherwise, what would be the purpose for having a 100% wet setting and a dedicated wet output? Maybe I just fundamentally don't understand how wet signals work?

So when you turn Pre-Delay up, the dry signal you're getting isnt delayed? Is there anyway you could post a screenshot of your setup and or a video demonstrating the issue you are having? I am going to try and recreate the issue here so that we can figure this out. Thanks!

[garbeaj]

I’m using Brock’s “100% WET SUNSETS” preset that he posted above…I am using the identical setting on all parameters.

[floresp640]

I understand and Im sorry you are having this issue. From what it sounds like and from what I have tested, this is just the nature of the beast. You can't completely seperate the dry tone out of your reverb if you want just the tail. Can you try turning Pre-Delay all the way up to see if the dry signal you are hearing is delayed or not. If the dry signal you are hearing is not delayed then there could be an issue. Can you also try using a few other algorithms (i.e timefactor algs). I just wanna isolate the issue so we can figure out a solution or an answer. 

[garbeaj]

The issue must be my lack of understanding how digital reverb works in general. The problem is that I don’t care whether the dry signal is getting pre-delay. It is, but I don’t care about that.

The problem is that I don’t want any of the original signal in the Wet output, I only want the reverb. So therein lies the rub.

I guess there’s no way to get reverb only in one amp of a two amp setup. I have tried using my line out box that takes the distorted amp sound from the speaker output and connecting the H9 between in at the input of my Super Reverb with the wet output going into it. At least if I’m stuck with dry guitar sound going along with the reverb it doesn’t sound like a clean rockabilly guitar player in the wet amp.

It sort’ve works, but it is a completely different sound from having reverb on the whole guitar sound. Maybe I need to mic the speaker of the main amp (Marshall) and run that into a mixer and connect the H9 into the mixer somehow and then somehow get the reverb only sound from the mixer to the other amp (Super Reverb)? I don’t know…I guess it’s not possible to isolate only the reverb.

I guess that’s why records with reverb on the entire guitar sound end up sounding great and no one pulls this type of reverb sound off live. It doesn’t seem like it should be this difficult, but I suppose I’m asking for the impossible.

[garbeaj]

So in absence of being able to create a stereo reverb sound with two amps in a wet-dry scenario (I’m still puzzled that this can’t be done without the dry signal entering into the wet output, but…) any suggestions for a mono straight to my main amp reverb? I guess I would use one of the suggested settings above and dial the mix WAY back? I hate to do this because the integrity of the main guitar sound is compromised…

I actually tried going back to Normal routing and using the 100% Wet Sunsets setting above with the Mix dialed way back…12 in fact, and it sounded horrible.

It seems like I’ve heard other people use reverb on a distorted guitar and it doesn’t sound this bad.

[garbeaj]

I’m trying to record with my only microphone (a Sennheiser MD-420) and my iPhone, but it doesn’t capture any of the wet amp sound out of the Super Reverb at all. I get passable though not ideal results when I use my Line-out box so at least the dry guitar sound that comes with the reverb is distorted…but I still wish I could achieve the sounds on the first Van Halen album which definitely has only reverb and no original Dry, rockabilly/funk clean guitar sound in with the reverb. Obviously I know this is because of recording the sound of the guitar track coming out of the aforementioned speakers and into the reverb chamber, but it just seems like with all this uber ridiculous technology that someone would be able to make this work.

[floresp640]

So I tried a few work arounds that worked on my end here. 

1.) With the 2 amp setup, turn the Early reflections to 0 and late reflections to 10. Turn the diffusion all the way up as well. This should give you less dry signal

2.) in terms of just using one amp, I would highly reccomend using an effects loop if your amp has it. Putting your reverb uin front will sometimes distort the signal. Putting the pedal through the loop will keep this signal clean giving you a closer reverb as to what you would find on the early Van Halen records. 

Hope this helps! 

[garbeaj]

I’ll try those settings out and see if that helps…

I do not have an effects loop in any amp that I have ever owned, so that is not an option. I guess I could get an effects loop installed in my main Marshall.

It seems strange to me that a reverb only sound is that unusual…is this something that no one asks for or is it just not possible?

[garbeaj]

Would the MixingLink help me with my quest for this sound? It says it works as an effects loop and it says it helps with panning effects…which seems like what I’m trying to do.

[garbeaj]

Never mind…I see that MixingLink is not compatible with iPhone or iPad.

[garbeaj]

Turning the early/late to 0/10 and maxing the diffusion helped…I’m liking what I hear a bit better now.

[Author]

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