Vsig Problems (Eventide DSP4000)

[period123]

Hello,

I want to start programming the DSP4000 not on the screen anymore, but via Vsig. The problem though is that I am repeatedly getting weird errors that make no sense in the context of the patch (for example stuff like “don’t know about operator type xx in line x” while line x is usually the last line that says tails”. Another problem is that when I start Vsig for the first time, I can only choose one MIDI In Device and have to unplug all the ones I don’t want to use in order to be able to select the right one. Just a small inconvenience (compared to the other problem which makes Vsig unusable), but it might be connected to it.

I’ve tried redownloading the DBase, reinstalling Vsig numerous times, used an XP emulation once and several different MIDI-Interfaces, but the problem persists. May it be a hardware problem?

Thanks in advance!

 

P.S.: While I’m at it, there’s another problem (but not related to this one): I get memory errors when using the Oscillator module, anybody else been having this issue? 

[nickrose]

We can't give much support for these older system – in particular I don't know if the current Vsig supports them, and I don't have one around to check it.

That said, we can try. It would be helpful if you could give more information:

1) Please give FULL text of error messages, not this xx stuff.

2) Please give an example sigfile.

3) Are these errors repeatable, or do they happen randomly.

4) What OS are you using ?

5) What memory errors are you getting and from where ?

6) Have you tried a different computer ? If not. please do.

My initial guess is that it is a communications problem – the DSP4000 MIDI will probably either work or not.

 

[period123]

Thanks for the reply.

1) Please give FULL text of error messages, not this xx stuff.

So I created a very simple easydelay-patch (downloading the DBase etc. worked out fine + downloading patches from the DSP4000). I then added a sequencer, tried to send it to the DSP4000 and I get this error: “don’t know about an operator type ’68’ ERROR- no operator of type 68. Line 5” Line 5 doesn’t exist in that patch. If I delete the sequencer module and try to use different modules, I get a different error (which usually refer to the last line (Tails) or a line that doesn’t exist). I reworked the patch to a simple combfilter-patch, here the new error: “don’t know about an operator type ‘ytaps’ ERROR- no operator of type ytaps. Line 4”

Getting patches from the DSP4000 on my PC works flawlessly with no errors whatsoever. 

2) Please give an example sigfile.

The easydelay-patch:

HEAD adc easytaps-left easytaps-right “Multitap Delay” ”  mtap” 2 easytaps-obj adc-nullobj ;=25,-50,100,0

ADD mono adc-left adc-right ;=125,25,100,0

EASYTAPS easytaps 1 mono-out 0 0 0 0 -1 0 0 0 0 ;=275,25,100,0

TAIL factory

 

The comb patch:

 

HEAD adc comb-out comb-out “Multitap Delay” ”  mtap” 2 comb-obj adc-nullobj ;=25,-50,100,0

ADD mono adc-left adc-right ;=125,25,100,0

COMB comb 1 mono-out 0 -1 ;=250,25,100,0

TAIL factory

 

3) Are these errors repeatable, or do they happen randomly.

They happen randomly after a little while. I could download a different patch, add a completely different module and play around with it, and it might work for a few minutes, but at some point the error will occur (in different form). As soon as the error occurs, sending patches to the DSP becomes impossible, it doesn’t matter if I download one from the DSP4000 and tweak it or if I create a new one. Sending patches always fails after the first error unless I delete the Database-file and redownload it.

4) What OS are you using?

I’m using Windows 10 64bit at the moment, but I also tried it on a Windows XP 32bit emulation.

5) What memory errors are you getting and from where ?

Here the error (I only get it when I’m using the Oscillator module on the DSP4000):

An address error has occurred.

Program Counter: 0x000118FE

Status Register: 0010000000000000

Please write these down and reboot.

When I rebooted the unit, I got the error again, so I was forced to clear the internal programs and the setup (with the 8 key when starting up).

6) Have you tried a different computer ? If not. please do.

I am currently installing it on another XP emulation on my Mac laptop. Will give a feedback later on if it works or not.

 

[period123]

Edit: Tried it on the Mac (with XP emulation). Everything worked out fine and at some point (again randomly) I get this error: “don’t know about an operator type ‘age’ ERROR- no operator of type age.Line 8” Again, Line 8 being the “tail”-Line.

So it doesn’t work on the Mac either.

[nickrose]

I'm guessing that you have a communications problem sending stuff to the DSP4000, and it is losing or corrupting characters. This would explain all that you are seeing.

The DSP4000 is a 25 year old design, and is nowhere near as fast as a modern computer (it has an 8MHz processor, rather than 2-3000MHz), so you may just be sending stuff faster than it can handle it.

I don't really have a solution, unless you can find a MIDI interface that is slower, or can be "throttled." I am, alas, unaware of such a thing.

 

[period123]

nickrose wrote:

I’m guessing that you have a communications problem sending stuff to the DSP4000, and it is losing or corrupting characters. This would explain all that you are seeing.

The DSP4000 is a 25 year old design, and is nowhere near as fast as a modern computer (it has an 8MHz processor, rather than 2-3000MHz), so you may just be sending stuff faster than it can handle it.

I don’t really have a solution, unless you can find a MIDI interface that is slower, or can be “throttled.” I am, alas, unaware of such a thing.

Thanks, this sounds like a plausible explanation for the problem. I’ll just stick to programming it on the screen for now.

Do you know what might have caused the other problem (the error on the DSP4000 when using the Oscillator module)? Not being able to use that module would be a bit sad.

Thanks in advance!

[nickrose]

My guess is that the OScillator issues were caused by the download problems. Try the same thing on the screen, and see if they reappear.

 

[period123]

nickrose wrote:

My guess is that the OScillator issues were caused by the download problems. Try the same thing on the screen, and see if they reappear.

Unfortunately these errors did appear when I was using the DSP4000 on the screen (didn’t use Vsig). 🙁

[nickrose]

Sorry – I have nothing more I can add. Except, try different waveforms and other parameters.

 

[jmmp]

Which version of VSIG are you running? I ran into similar problems recently when I was started connecting VSIG with my 4000, and I finally got everything working by using VSIG 1.53.

[period123]

JMMP wrote:

Which version of VSIG are you running? I ran into similar problems recently when I was started connecting VSIG with my 4000, and I finally got everything working by using VSIG 1.53.

I used the newest version, but kinda gave it up and resorted to using the patch editor. But it would be really amazing if your suggestion worked, can you tell me where you got that version? Can’t find it on the net.

Big thanks in advance!

[jmmp]

You will need to run it on your 32 bit emulation, as the program is simply not compatible with 64 bit windows programs. Inside of the folder, there is a file entitled “sigdb400.sbs”. If your DSP4000 is any other version than 2.158, delete this file and use the MIDI-> get database function to pull the database from your 4000.

Make sure to download all five files, and place them all in the same folder.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/44rrzojsqyw8ifx/AAC96Fjq3-lCT-QrFbM1eXeUa?dl=0

 

Hope that helps!

[period123]

jmmp wrote:

You will need to run it on your 32 bit emulation, as the program is simply not compatible with 64 bit windows programs. Inside of the folder, there is a file entitled “sigdb400.sbs”. If your DSP4000 is any other version than 2.158, delete this file and use the MIDI-> get database function to pull the database from your 4000.

Make sure to download all five files, and place them all in the same folder.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/44rrzojsqyw8ifx/AAC96Fjq3-lCT-QrFbM1eXeUa?dl=0

 

Hope that helps!

Thanks alot!

One question: Did you encounter a problem when trying to fetch the database from the 4000? It doesn’t work for me with the 1.53 version (“Awating reply..”), but it works with the newer version. Device ID on the 4000 is set to 1 and the settings were the same in both instances.

[jmmp]

I did not have any errors getting the database using 1.53. I’m sure you did this, but double check that your MIDI I/O is properly configured inside 1.53, and delete the library I included (unless your 4000 is version 2.158). If it works in a newer version, there is no reason it shouldn’t work in 1.53.

Does your 4000 show any signs of receiving MIDI from 1.53?

[period123]

jmmp wrote:

I did not have any errors getting the database using 1.53. I’m sure you did this, but double check that your MIDI I/O is properly configured inside 1.53, and delete the library I included (unless your 4000 is version 2.158). If it works in a newer version, there is no reason it shouldn’t work in 1.53.

Does your 4000 show any signs of receiving MIDI from 1.53?

I did configure it properly within Vsig. Even tried setting the MIDI ID to 1, it doesn’t really save that though, which probably doesn’t matter as it may be set to that by default. The DSP4000 doesn’t show any signs of receiving MIDi-Data. What I can do though is dump MIDI data onto Vsig, but not the internal files, because then I run out of memory. But trying to fetch data, whether it be the database or user files, doesn’t seem to do anything. Only “Awaiting reply…” and no sign of anything on the DSP4000.

[jmmp]

In what you described, it sounds like the common factor is the MIDI send to the Eventide. I don’t really have much else to add. Did you say what OS version your DSP4000 is?

[period123]

jmmp wrote:

In what you described, it sounds like the common factor is the MIDI send to the Eventide. I don’t really have much else to add. Did you say what OS version your DSP4000 is?

Yeah, it’s version 2.000. It’s midi send, yes. My midi interface signals that the MIDI data has been sent out, but it never arrives at the DSP4000. As if it rejects it.

Do you have any other old versions of Vsig I could try and use? Perhaps an even older version? Maybe that’ll do the trick.

Thanks in advance.

[siavash82ir]

Sorry – I have nothing more I can add. Except, try different waveforms and other parameters.

 

http://www.rahkarenovin.com

[atarirob]

7 years late, I know – but I was able to get this to work using Vsig 2.4.9.0, DSP4000 (OS v.2.0) and Win 10 x64. The issue has nothing to do with data recieved from the DSP4000, but rather with the borderline 3-decade old DSP4000’s MIDI buffer not being able to handle such a massive stream of Sysex at the rate in which modern systems are able to send it.

Here’s what you’ll need:

An Eventide DSP4000 (:P)
A programmable USB MIDI interface/patchbay that supports MIDI mapping and muting (i.e., MOTU Express XT)

Step 1: Make sure that the DSP4000 (and your PC) is the only thing plugged into your MIDI patchbay that is turned on. Anything else, switch off. Synths should be okay, but sequencers or anything that send MTC, or clock, or realtime MIDI have interferred with the process for me. Make sure your DSP4000’s MIDI ID is set to ’01’. No other ID number will work in my testing. Make sure MIDI comms are setup so that it accepts and recieves MIDI data and turn Omni mode off.

Step 2: Connect your DSP4000’s MIDI In & Out up to the MIDI patchbay – mute all realtime messages going to the DSP4000’s MIDI Input (output isn’t necessary) and make sure that you have set the DSP4000 to only send and recieve MIDI from the port in which your computer’s MIDI comes from. Mute all other ports EXCEPT the In & Out from your PC! This limits the MIDI data to just the DSP4k’s input and output and is absolutely necessary for this to work. Muting the DSP’s MIDI data and muting realtime messages at it’s input is the key to getting this to work.

Step 3: Open Vsigfile 2.4.9.0, head over to MIDI comms in Preferences. Select the port in which you are outputting MIDI from your PC from. Then, retrieve the module database for DSP4000 – make sure you create some folders for Vsig’s Database, Library and Bitmap locations found in Preferences>User Setup. I put mine in Documents in a folder titled ‘VSig’ (I put mine in C:\Users\***\Documents\vsigfile\), but you may want to simply add them to the parent folder where ‘VSIGFILE.EXE’ is held. Once the DSP4000 has finished it’s data stream, the file should automatically save in the parent folder of the Vsig app – remove it and put it in the ‘Database’ folder you just created.

NOTE: If you are unable to retrieve Database then it’s likely that the DSP4000’s MIDI In & Out are meeting at some point and interrupting the MIDI stream – this was the case for me – in this instance you might want to mute the realtime data at both the DSP’s MIDI In & Out AND doublecheck you don’t have them routed to eachother on your patchbay.

Step 4: Now, with Database in hand, inside Vsig go into Preferences>User Setup and make sure you’re directing Vsig to the three locations for your Database, Library and Bitmaps, wherever you just created them. Restart Vsig. The promt to get Database should not appear.

Step 5: Navigate over to the Empty Program preset on the DSP4000. You can also save this to a user slot if you like, you will be returning here often!

Step 6: Create a basic patch with Vsig, like a Filter module connected to the Left input and Left output. Now the moment of truth – hit ‘Send’ with Vsig. If you did everthing right, the DSP4000 should show a graphic on it’s screen telling you it’s receiving MIDI and then load the patch from Vsig. You can check if it has worked by pressing the PATCH key on the DSP4000. Here, you should see the Filter module.

If this didn’t work for you: do not worry, load into another program on the DSP, and then back into the ‘Empty Program’ preset and try again. This, I have found from hours of testing, seems to reset or at least clear the MIDI buffer, allowing for another attempt. Sometimes it takes a few tries, but eventually the stream will reach the DSP4000 intact and Vsig will successfully send the data to the DSP4000.

Until MIDI solutions, or Kenton release a MIDI device that throttles or buffers MIDI stream (maybe the new Kenton Interchanger will do something like this), this is about the best you can do. Of course, the DSP4000 (compared to Orville, H8000) is a simple beast – a single DSP engine and only 2 in, 2 out. To anyone new reading this; programming from the front panel is not so bad and I would recommend getting well versed in it before touching Vsig. It will make all the concepts like modules, patch structure, userobjects, menupages, etc. much more palatable and easy to digest than flying straight into Vsig.

Good luck!!

[who]

HUGE thanks to atarirob for posting the above!!!  I think I have alternate method based on atarirob’s work that some may find useful.  Below are the steps:

1. Install MIDIOX, Vsigfile 1.99.2.0, LoopMIDI and MIDIView.

2. Create a virtual port using LoopMIDI.

3. Open MIDIOX

a. From the View menu, open SysEx.  The “SysEx View and Scratchpad” window will open

b. From the SysEx menu in the “SysEx View and Scratchpad” window, select Configure.

c. Set the Low Level Input and Output buffers to 16.

d. Click the “Delay After F7” and “Auto-adjust Buffer Delays if necessary” so that both have checkmarks.

e. Click OK, the Configure window will close.

f.  Click the “Select MIDI Device to Open”, the Midi Devices window will open.

g. Enable the physical ports the DSP4000 is connected to on your MIDI interface by clicking on their names in the “MIDI Inputs” and “MIDI Outputs” lists.

h. Enable the virtual port created in step two from the ‘MIDI Outputs” window.

I. Click OK and the “MIDI Devices” window will close

4. Open Vsigfile.

a. From Vsigfile, click on the Preferences menu and select Comms Setup.  The Comms Preferences window will open.

b. Configure the Input by selecting the physical port the DSP4000 is connected to.

c. Configure the output by selecting the virtual port created in step two.

d. Click Ok and the Comms Preferences window will close.

7. Open MIDIView

a. Select the virtual port created in step two from the drop-down menu.

b. Click the Clear button to ensure no SysEx is displayed in the window.

8. Back to Vsigfile, open a file either by creating a new program OR by downloading a program from the DSP4000.

9. From the MIDI menu in Vsigfile, select Send.

10. From MIDIView, there should be a new line of SysEx.  Click on the line so it is selected and from the Edit menu, select “Copy Hex Data”.

11. From MIDIOX, the “SysEx View and Scratchpad” should still be open.  Paste the Sysex you copied in the previous step to the Command Window.

12. From the Command Window menu, click Send SysEx.

NOTE:  If Vsigfile reports an error similar to, “don’t know about an operator type ‘y’ ERROR- no operator of type y. Line 24” ALL IS NOT LOST!  As atarirob described, load another program in the DSP4000 then reload the Empty Program preset, then repeat step 12.  Repeat until the DSP400 accepts the transfer.

In summary, MIDIOX is used to slow the transfer to the DSP4000.  There is likely a way to streamline the process by using MIDIOX to perform the capture of the SysEx sent by Vsigfile.  The above may work with Vsigfile 2.4.9.0, but I have yet to test it.

 

[who]

It appears the process I described in my previous post works with 2.4.9.0 too.

[who]

I’m finding I run into fewer communication errors when I start from a preset downloaded from the DSP4000 as opposed to building a preset from scratch in VSigFile.  Not sure why.

[atarirob]

Well, I’m glad my ramblings were of some use to someone, somewhere!

I’ve pondered a little bit more as to why this occures, so I’ll detail it here as an addendum to my last post, for anyone who cares (there’s also what I see as a 100% effective solution to this issue included at the tail end):

I am certain that the reason the DSP4000 doesn’t interface well with modern computers (i.e., a machine produced in the last 10 years) is because the 4000’s MIDI buffer gets overloaded. It’s processor just cannot cope and the data buffer gets completely obliterated. It’s expecting a stream of data arriving at the speed that a sequencer or computer from the mid-1990’s was able to send at. When you hit ‘Send sigfile’ on VSig, your modern computer and USB interface just spits out the data as fast as it possibly can. There is nothing inside VSig that slows the speed of transfer to accomodate an older system like the 4000, so the buffer fills up almost instantly and the 4000 cannot cope.

The reason, I suspect, that this happens so frequently is because the 4000 is internally very close to a H3000, so I’m willing to bet that the MIDI implementation was pulled straight from the H3000 (which predated the 4000 by 6 years). That aside, I am confident that all it would take to wholesale fix this (admittedly rather obscure and esoteric) issue is for someone to implement a buffer within VSig that slows the stream of MIDI data being sent out, similar to mgregory’s fantastic software editor for the Yamaha TX81Z (from 1987, interface flawlessly with the Win10 Pro X64).

This unfortunately is not going to happen because Eventide seem entirely uninterested in doing anything with VSig2, let alone releasing the source code and frankly even if they did I don’t think this community has a big enough crossover of able programmers and VSig2 users to actualise this pipe dream!…ah well…

But to finish on a high-note; If anyone is stumbling onto this very obscure problem, here is a 100% fix: Find and buy a solid older laptop, like an old IBM Thinkpad running either Windows 98, or XP that is just about powerful enough to run VSig (even the cheapest 98/XP-era Thinkpads should eat VSig). Get an older interface, like a MIDISport 2×2, get VSig running and away you go. Set it up somewhere in your studio as your main ‘editing hub’ for your older Eventide gear, and maybe some other bits of older gear that have virtual editors like the previously mentioned Yamaha TX81Z, for example. This is something I have done (now with a H8000FW) and is the ONLY foolproof fix, and most importantly (to me, at least), is the only method with any sembelance of longevity. After all, even if someone managed to find a 100% effective way of getting VSig running on Win10, who is to say that method will work on Win11, or Win12 when it comes out? Who’s to say VSig would even install on future operating systems, just like how you can’t install Windows compatible DOS reliant .exe’s on Win10. It’s better to just cut out all this needless, mind-numbing busy-work and just cough up the $50 or so for an decent condition 98/XP-era laptop + interface and be set forever, programming away in VSig…heaven!

Yes, it is cumbersome and yes it’s annoying having a power-hungry older computer set up in your studio just for this one very specific task, but if you like the older Eventide’s then this is a must!

Or if you don’t want all the hassle, just download a modern module-based music programming suite like Reaktor 6 or Max/MSP, and do everything on a single modern laptop like a normal person 😉

Happy programming!

[who]

I agree It’s too bad VSigFile seems to be abandonware.  There have to be quite a few DSP4000s, DSP4500s, DS7000s, DSP7500s, DSP7600s, Orvilles and H8000FWs out there!  (Did I miss any supported by VSig2?!)

In addition to the info provided by atarirob above, I also found Adam-I-Echo’s videos helpful.  Here’s an example:  https://youtu.be/y71fpL6c-dg.

[atarirob]

Right on, Adam’s videos are great! His videos on the 8000 are extremely useful. He’s a thoroughly entertaining guy.

I think there are a fair few 8000’s and Orvilles knocking about. I see them crop up fairly often in medium to large sized studios, but I strongly suspect that most of these beasts are relegated to the role of preset boxes unfortunately. Of course I hope I’m wrong!

I guess I should never say never in regards to Eventide releasing VSig’s source code, or somehow the community revitalising VSig for newer machines. After all, it was ported to OSX/MacOS by a single person around 10 years ago to some success I think.

I can attest that the H8000FW works flawlessly via both MIDI and RS232 Serial to USB (using a Belkin adapter) on a Windows 10 Pro x64 laptop. This is something I’ve never seen talked about online, but I reckon it’s really important. Streaming data via serial frees up the MIDI ports and is much faster than MIDI. It also allows you to have MIDI automated control of the H8000 whilst being able to freely tinker in VSig and making slight adjustments to your algorithm without conflict occuring with other software/hardware also sending/receiving data to and from the 8000.

I can count the times I’ve had errors on one hand, after 6 months of use. I suspect this has something to do with the fact that the H8000’s processor is probably somewhere in the range of 10x more powerful than that of the DSP4000 and thus doesn’t run into the same data overload issues. I never got around to trying the RS232 Serial to USB with the DSP4000 before I upgraded to the 8000, although as I’m typing this I’m reminded of that massive interview Aphex Twin did around the time his album ‘Syro’ was released where he said he tried exactly as I just described with his DSP4000 to no avail, so I’ll trust his conclusion there! If MIDI is finicky, I can only imagine that serial is the same or worse.

[Author]

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